Inert gas ?????

[sampvt]

As a newbee, I am intrigued with the mention of inert gases to form a blanket on top of the resting wine, presumably to protect it from oxidisation or contact with the air left in the carboy so it doesn't spoil.

Can someone please explain what gases we should use and how is it done. I have heard of using gas canisters on beer which prolongs its lifespan in a beer cellar of a pub, but how or what do we use to put gas in a carboy.

 

[Rocky]

The inert gases are Helium, Neon, Argon, Krypton, Xenon and Radon. All other gases are 'ert.' For wine making usage, your best bet is Argon for its availability, weight and cost.

 

[sampvt]

The inert gases are Helium, Neon, Argon, Krypton, Xenon and Radon. All other gases are 'ert.' For wine making usage, your best bet is Argon for its availability, weight and cost.

The million dollar question is where can we buy or get these gases and in what form do they come.

 

[sampvt]

Ive just found a spray canister for £12 on the internet e bay. Is this the stuff we need.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/371230330591?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

[sour_grapes]

Argon is widely available at welding supply houses.

Also, Rocky is not quite correct about the "ertness" of common gases. CO2 and N2 are inert as far as this problem is concerned. CO2 is obviously not desirable, however.

And, by the way, the notion of one gas providing a "blanket" over the wine is a bit ludicrous, regardless of their relative weights.

 

[GreginND]

The inert gases are Helium, Neon, Argon, Krypton, Xenon and Radon. All other gases are 'ert.' For wine making usage, your best bet is Argon for its availability, weight and cost.

In this case inert is not referring to chemical reactivity, but protection from oxygen. Two gasses you did not mention are Nitrogen and Carbon Dioxide.

I would not recommend CO2 as it can dissolve into the wine and then you will have fizzy wine.

Nitrogen, on the other hand, is significantly cheaper than argon and is likely the best cost/protection for inert gas techniques.

In order to source tanks of inert gas you want to contact your local welding supply houses. They should be able to get whatever gasses you need. Around here our gas supplier is a company called Praxair.

 

[sour_grapes]

I am glad my message was posted two minutes earlier than Greg instead of two minutes later!

Well, if two of us say the same thing, it must be correct, no?

 

[Just-a-Guy]

Further question - how to do do it? I've done something like it with beers with a corny keg, where you can force it with gas (there, with beer, you use CO2), and bleed it off with the valve to get out the oxygen, then fill it again. But how do you do it with wine?

 

[vacuumpumpman]

Usually I have a flexible hose attached to the regulator and push in inside the neck of the carboy. Turn it on and push out all the air because the gas is heavier than air and then cap it off.

 

[PhilDarby]

helium is inert and readily available, for kiddies balloons, but i`ve no idea how it would work with any of these ideas, its also, lighter than air so might be awkward to use.

Although it could probably be used with a pressure barrel im not sure of its effects interaction wise eg it might be taken up by the fluid and cause a squeaky voice or other problems.

It might be effective at low pressure merely to expel oxygen though.

 

[brewbush]

So I have read other posts regarding inert gases and their flow on the surface of a liquid. However even if the gases mix the heavier one would setting on top of the liquid correct?

How long do you allow the gas to flow?
Do you do a match test in the neck of the carboy to determine lack of O2?
How long will this "blanket" protect the wine before you have to regas the deadspace in the carboy?
How long have you kept a reasonably large headspace filled with inert gas and still had a nonoxidized wine?

 

[sour_grapes]

So I have read other posts regarding inert gases and their flow on the surface of a liquid. However even if the gases mix the heavier one would setting on top of the liquid correct?

No, this is not correct. Gases spontaneously mix and diffuse. The relative densities of the gases have a vanishingly small effect on their position.

It is true that any two gases that are brought into contact will stay separated on short time scales (seconds to minutes). However, on the time scale of tens of minutes, they will diffuse and mix together.

This is not to say that you cannot reduce the O2 content in your headspace by flushing with a different gas. But the fact that Ar is denser than O2 plays (essentially) no role in this.

 

[ibglowin]

The theory of blanketing with inert gas is plain hogwash. Like Paul says it will all diffuse together over time. The only way it works is to flush flush flush the headspace with either Argon or Nitrogen (which is cheaper than Argon) and then seal tightly. The match trick is just that. A trick. There can still be enough O2 in the vessel to oxidize your wine over time but not enough to keep a match or lighter lit.

 

[GreginND]

Flushing w inert before corking can be of benefit.

I'm not convinced it makes any difference for a home winemaker - especially if one is doing vacuum bottling with an AIOWP.

 

[GaDawg]

The theory of blanketing with inert gas is plain hogwash. Like Paul says it will all diffuse together over time. The only way it works is to flush flush flush the headspace with either Argon or Nitrogen (which is cheaper than Argon) and then seal tightly. The match trick is just that. A trick. There can still be enough O2 in the vessel to oxidize your wine over time but not enough to keep a match or lighter lit.

It may be hogwash, but that is what Joeswine does and he has a rep. for making some very good wine

 

[Norske]

Ask a 10 winemakers their opinion on a subject and you will get 11 different responses.

I was taught by a commercial winemaker with 28 plus years in the commercial wine making industry and one thing he taught me was to sparge the tanks with argon. We use SS Variable Volume tanks and do not let the lid float on the wine. Instead, we leave a head space of 6-10" and sparge it with argon. Every tank is checked and resparged with argon every Sunday AM.
Their is quite a bit of lit available on the techniques used to sparge argon. Basically the lower the pressure the better. Also we use a stainless steel T that fits down through the top of the bung, whereas it flows out horizontally across the top of the wine, versus spraying vertically down on the wine.
To this date, we have never had one tank go bad. This method has worked extremely well for us. This can only work if you are religious on maintaining diligence on checking/sparging.

I too realize the debates on this matter go across the whole spectrum. All I know is this method seems to be working for us quite well.

 

[ibglowin]

I think you may have misinterpreted my statement.

It may be hogwash, but that is what Joeswine does and he has a rep. for making some very good wine

 

[sour_grapes]

Yes, note that Mike said "The only way it works is to flush flush flush the headspace with either Argon or Nitrogen." This is another word for "sparging." You have to actually remove the oxygen.

I, too, have advocated sparging in other posts. All I am trying to say here is that you absolutely cannot rely on the relative densities of two gases to provide any protection. They will mix. The fact that Ar is heavier than N2 has (almost) no influence on what the gas composition next to the wine will be.

Still don't believe me? As JohnT has pointed out, Earth's atmosphere is 0.5% Ar. If it "settled to the bottom," we would be smothered by Ar down here at ground level.

Still don't believe me? What about liquids? Ethanol is much less dense than water. Have you noticed that the top of your wine bottle contains much more alcohol than the bottom? Neither have I. (Oil and water is a different case: here, we are only considering miscible fluids.)

If you STILL don't believe me, I will present the full statistical mechanical treatment -- and I don't think anyone, including me, wants that!

 

[sampvt]

I know this is probably a daft idea, but has anyone thought of putting a balloon in the demi or carboy and blowing it up sealing the neck of the balloon in the bung to achieve a seal after it pushes the top level of the wine right up to the neck.

It could work by feeding the balloon in and have it weighted down by placing marbles inside the balloon so it sinks but could be suspended mid carboy with a thread round the neck.

Its a silly idea, but my mind works differently due to being a professional golfer all my adult life. I look outside the box for any hep I can get.

 

[Just-a-Guy]

If you STILL don't believe me, I will present the full statistical mechanical treatment -- and I don't think anyone, including me, wants that!

I would like the full statistical mechanical treatment. Can I get that with a Béarnaise?