Inert gas ?????

[vacuumpumpman]

I know this is probably a daft idea, but has anyone thought of putting a balloon in the demi or carboy and blowing it up sealing the neck of the balloon in the bung to achieve a seal after it pushes the top level of the wine right up to the neck.

It could work by feeding the balloon in and have it weighted down by placing marbles inside the balloon so it sinks but could be suspended mid carboy with a thread round the neck.

Its a silly idea, but my mind works differently due to being a professional golfer all my adult life. I look outside the box for any hep I can get.

BTW - I came up with that same idea, 3 years back
It never really took off
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f3/carboy-air-space-bladder-trial-version-18124/

I know have a new improved idea that can suck out the headspace of air and leave the container under vacuum. I also have a vacuum indicator to show you a visual that there is still vacuum in the vessel.

 

[sour_grapes]

I would like the full statistical mechanical treatment. Can I get that with a Béarnaise?

No, but you can get it with an exfoliation and skin conditioner.

 

[stickman]

The main advantage of argon and its higher density is during racking and transferring operations. The key is using a relatively low flow rate to minimize mixing and allow the more dense gas lay at the bottom of the vessel. As pointed out earlier, it wont stay there forever, but for racking it will stay long enough. If done properly you will use significantly less argon than nitrogen. The following article is interesting and explains with some technical detail much of what has been discussed here.


http://vinovation.com/ArticleArgon2.htm

 

[Norske]

Great read, thanks!

 

[Cluster]

Im guessing the general consensus is going to be to just get some pure Argon, but I have some 80/20 Ar/CO2 for welding could that be used or is that already too much CO2?

 

[stickman]

The 80/20 argon co2 will work, you just need to asses your preference for the wine co2 content and its effect on flavor. Most of the time winemakers are talking about degassing the wine to remove the excess co2, and this is fine and necessary to bring the co2 level down to an acceptable range, but it has been shown that, depending on the wine, removing too much co2 can have a negative effect on flavor. Many wineries use gas blends to maintain the desired level of co2 in the wine, but these people have equipment and test methods beyond the scope of most home winemakers.

Below are a couple of clips of some data with references noted. The data is for nitrogen co2 blends, so argon co2 blends will be similar, but not exactly the same. The data is of limited use, because it requires you to know what co2 level you want, but at least it provides a basic understanding of the principles.


"Because CO2 can dissolve in wine and N2 gas can completely deplete the CO2 content in a wine, a mixture of gasses which keep the level of CO2 in the wine constant is preferable. As a rule of thumb the CO2 content in red wines should be below 900 mg/l and that of white wines below 1400 mg/l. A too high or too low CO2 content can be detrimental to the wine ( Peynaud, 1994 ) and the exact level should be determined by taste. From figure 3 the mixture of gases can be determined at different temperatures. A mixture of twenty percent CO2 and 80% nitrogen should be used at 10°C to maintain a CO2 content of 500 mg/l in the wine. So if you consider both the normal cellar temperature and the amount of CO2 needed in the wine, then you can work out the ideal mixture."

See attachment

Figure 3. Theoretical composition of a CO2/N2 mixture to maintain initial CO2 content (Allen, 1994)

"Following Peynaud and other researchers, the ballpark numbers are pretty well known. Wine emerges from fermentation with about two grams per liter of dissolved CO2, and it declines from there. At 500 milligrams per liter, the presence of CO2 is noticeable; at 1,000 mg/L, there is a slight perception of prickliness. The textbook recommendation is that age-worthy reds should be bottled with no more than 100-200 mg/L; light, fruity reds could benefit from about 500 mg/L, and whites, depending on stylistic intent, might range anywhere from 500 mg/L to 1,800 mg/L, from slightly punched up to noticeably spritzy. (Wines & Vines, May 2011)

 

[sour_grapes]

That is great info, stickman. Thanks!

By the way, it may not be clear to many how to use that diagram. It is called a "nomogram." What you do is draw a line from the CO2 level you want to the temperature it is stored at. Then extend that over to the other side, and that tells you the % CO2 to use. The dashed line in the figure above is an example -- it tells you that "A mixture of twenty percent CO2 and 80% nitrogen should be used at 10°C to maintain a CO2 content of 500 mg/l in the wine" as noted above, but what I am saying is the dashed line is where those figures came from.

 

[richmke]

Their is quite a bit of lit available on the techniques used to sparge argon. Basically the lower the pressure the better. Also we use a stainless steel T that fits down through the top of the bung, whereas it flows out horizontally across the top of the wine, versus spraying vertically down on the wine.

I looked up "sparging", and it seems to imply bubbling an inert gas through the liquid in order to remove another gas, such as O2.

If you are just replacing the air on top of the tank, would that be closer to "purging", rather than "sparging"?

 

[stickman]

Richmke, you are technically correct, sparging means introducing a gas below the liquid level, but it is often used incorrectly in winemaking discussions. You can usually determine what is meant by the context of the discussion.

Whenever I introduce a gas, whether into the headspace or below the liquid, I use a sintered stainless sparge tip, it's like an aquarium bubble stone. It allows the gas to be emitted from a larger surface area, so you get laminar flow even using 1/4" tubing, at least in home winemaking applications like small tanks and carboys. I have filled bottles and carboys with smoke and then injected the gas at the bottom with the sparge tip and watched the smoke lift out gently and evenly in one layer without mixing, and it happens with near one volume of gas if done right. Interesting to see something you usually can't see.

 

[stickman]

Sour grapes, good point, I come from the chemical process industry and kind of incorrectly took for granted that people would know what the graph was indicating.

 

[richmke]

It would be interesting if you were actually sparging. Bubbling argon through the wine could pull out O2 (before it had a chance to oxidize the wine) and possibly CO2 (degass the wine). However, you may also pull out SO2, which protects the wine, and then you would have to add more k-meta.

 

[Hokapsig]

Having worked at the largest Air Separation Unit in the US, let me offer my opinion on this.

I would personally use a medical grade Argon gas to blanket the wine (if possible because I can get a very good price). This is available at a medical gas distributor. Argon is a tad heavier than air and therefore will should displace air in a confined space. Nitorgen and helium are lighter than air and will move off of the wine surface and accumulate toward the top of the container. Carbon dioxide will dissolve into the wine, and in an enclosed container will eventually reach an equalibrium (making the wine fizzy as stated). Since no Oxygen is attached to Argon, the wine will not be fizzy as the Argon reachs equalibrium with the wine.

But that's just my 2 cents.....

PS....Helium is in short supply and the price has increased dramatically. Plus it is extremely light and won't stay in the bottle for any amount of time...

 

[sour_grapes]

PS....Helium is in short supply and the price has increased dramatically. Plus it is extremely light and won't stay in the bottle for any amount of time...

Not to mention that there is a finite supply of it, and it is an invaluable and irreplaceable resource. Using it for, say, balloons or wine is so utterly misguided, IMHO.

 

[Floandgary]

As long as we're citing examples of inert gassing, how about this..... It has been a long standing practice of inflating tires of racing vehicles with Nitrogen. This practice has trickled over to the retail/consumer market as a sales gimmick. Rest assured that no effort is made to purge the existing atmospheric gasses from your tires. However the Nitrogen does do it's job of reducing heat buildup in the tire. Not that you'd have much heat buildup sloshing the carboy around , but the point is that by displacing bad,bad O2 with something inert has to be of some benefit. And really, we're talking a relatively small volume, so gas 'er up! OR stick with the old fashion ways of reducing volume,,, smaller vessel, top-up with like wine
Oh and lest we forget, "some" O2 presence is of benefit in the aging process. Just not in the amount akin to open-air

 

[sour_grapes]

However the Nitrogen does do it's job of reducing heat buildup in the tire.

What is the purported mechanism for this?

 

[ibglowin]

Its a smaller molecule than O2 thus less expansion, with heat build up. Lots of good info here.

 

[JohnT]

Wheeew!

A lot of heavy science being set down here!

If I may, I just want to bring this down to the point of the home winemaker..

In most cases, sparging is pure evil for the home winemaker. Let me explain.....

Most home winemakers want to use inert gasses to compensate for a large amount of headspace. A lot of times, the home winemaker will add the gas and then walk away feeling that he/she is safe.

This is simply not true unless the wine has a pressure tight, hermetic seal. If your wine is sealed using a fermentation lock, the inert gas will be expelled over time. This is due to temperature changes and barometric changes.

I know of many cases where the home winemaker used inert gas (argon in all cases), and walked away for a month or two only to find that the wine had oxidized.

You could make it a point of resparging the wine weekly, but opening up your wine weekly has its own dangers.

Another thing to consider is this. In a lot of cases, a little bit of O2 is actually a good thing for wine. A little bit of O2 will help to soften your wine and bring out flavor. If your wine is properly topped up, has a proper PH level, and has been properly treated with k-meta, sparging can actually inhibit the aging and softening process.

Sparging is all about what you want to achieve. It should never be used as an alternative to topping off a vessel when a fermentation trap is involved.

Save your money on sparging. Put that money toward next year's grapes or kits instead!

 

[sour_grapes]

Lots of good info here.

Welll, there is a fair amount of bad info there, with one or two true things. To be fair, they do hedge the claims quite a bit, and conclude thusly:

Overall, inflating tires with nitrogen won't hurt them and may provide some minimal benefits.

Not exactly a strong statement. And, I should note, they make absolutely no reference to heat build up in that article.

Its a smaller molecule than O2 thus less expansion, with heat build up.

Not sure what you are saying here. Actually, N2 is a bit LARGER than O2. (Or did you mean lighter?) But this has nothing to do with heat capacity. (N2 does indeed, have a slightly larger, ~14% higher, heat capacity.) Or did you have an argument in mind based on, say, the Van der Waals equation? (I know that that equation is not accurate, but it is the first thing that popped into my mind that related molecular size and temperature.)

 

[Floandgary]

Almost getting off-topic with this. Backing it up a bit, the topic was about airspace left in a carboy which had not been "topped-up" and the displacing of the O2 in that airspace with an inert gas (ok,ok not CO2) so as to prohibit possible excessive oxidation during the aging process. Reminder that, unless you are using the AIO or similar system, you will likely re-introduce O2 to the mix each time you do a rackover. If I were to consider a gas attack, I would simply put a hose in to the liquid level and purge the atmospheric air out for a couple of seconds (or more depending on how much volume we're talkin'), then pop the air lock on. Unless you've got an abnormally large airspace, I doubt that you'd have to worry about temperature swings blowing gas out and sucking air back in. Again I defer to the tried and trued,,,,, proper size vessel or top-up with like wine!!

 

[ibglowin]

Talke a look at this article

Not sure what you are saying here. Actually, N2 is a bit LARGER than O2. (Or did you mean lighter?) But this has nothing to do with heat capacity. (N2 does indeed, have a slightly larger, ~14% higher, heat capacity.) Or did you have an argument in mind based on, say, the Van der Waals equation? (I know that that equation is not accurate, but it is the first thing that popped into my mind that related molecular size and temperature.)