Homemade vs. Commercial and what I am doing to close the gap

[cenk57]

I just read the majority of this great thread! Very good information indeed. There were many mentions of "chillers" and diy cool boxes made from chest freezers. But I was wondering, would a walk in type cooler work for cold soaking and cooler ferments? If there was a mention of that here, I missed it so I would apologize. Reason being, we have a 14x14 walk in cooler in our barn that is used for storing produce in the warmer months. It can easily cool down to 32F. I ferment mostly in 20 gallon brut containers. I have never used the cooler in winemaking (don't know why). It seems like it would be a perfect answer to this. Cold soak for 2-3 days, then increase the ambient temp in the cooler to the ideal fermenting temp (or a few degrees lower). To drop the temps fast, I was thinking of tossing in a couple of frozen jugs when I place the containers in the cooler. Does anyone use a walk in cooler for this sort of thing?

 

[wood1954]

I don’t, but sure sounds like a great idea.

 

[mainshipfred]

I just read the majority of this great thread! Very good information indeed. There were many mentions of "chillers" and diy cool boxes made from chest freezers. But I was wondering, would a walk in type cooler work for cold soaking and cooler ferments? If there was a mention of that here, I missed it so I would apologize. Reason being, we have a 14x14 walk in cooler in our barn that is used for storing produce in the warmer months. It can easily cool down to 32F. I ferment mostly in 20 gallon brut containers. I have never used the cooler in winemaking (don't know why). It seems like it would be a perfect answer to this. Cold soak for 2-3 days, then increase the ambient temp in the cooler to the ideal fermenting temp (or a few degrees lower). To drop the temps fast, I was thinking of tossing in a couple of frozen jugs when I place the containers in the cooler. Does anyone use a walk in cooler for this sort of thing?

If you have a walk in capable of 32F not being used I'd say you have the perfect solution. If you get it down to temp I don't see any reason to use the frozen jugs.

 

[franc1969]

I just read the majority of this great thread! Very good information indeed. There were many mentions of "chillers" and diy cool boxes made from chest freezers. But I was wondering, would a walk in type cooler work for cold soaking and cooler ferments? If there was a mention of that here, I missed it so I would apologize. Reason being, we have a 14x14 walk in cooler in our barn that is used for storing produce in the warmer months. It can easily cool down to 32F. I ferment mostly in 20 gallon brut containers. I have never used the cooler in winemaking (don't know why). It seems like it would be a perfect answer to this. Cold soak for 2-3 days, then increase the ambient temp in the cooler to the ideal fermenting temp (or a few degrees lower). To drop the temps fast, I was thinking of tossing in a couple of frozen jugs when I place the containers in the cooler. Does anyone use a walk in cooler for this sort of thing?

I would be jumping for joy! I have someone I know with a walkin in his barn, thought of asking to use it for fermentation, but for the half hour to get there.
For anyone else space challenged, I saw a flexible chest freezer/refrigerator at Costco, for something like $200? Very cheap, was looking at an upright to replace my freezer but I several of these are better. I think it was 7 cubic foot, looks like it would take two buckets or carboys. I hope they still have it when I go back in a week, I couldn't take it then.

 

[cenk57]

I would be jumping for joy! I have someone I know with a walkin in his barn, thought of asking to use it for fermentation, but for the half hour to get there.
For anyone else space challenged, I saw a flexible chest freezer/refrigerator at Costco, for something like $200? Very cheap, was looking at an upright to replace my freezer but I several of these are better. I think it was 7 cubic foot, looks like it would take two buckets or carboys. I hope they still have it when I go back in a week, I couldn't take it then.

I am not sure why I haven't done this yet. I just make wine in my basement, which is 66 degrees year round - not bad. But I will be moving to the walk in from now on. I make a lot of white and fruit (I grow on our farm) wines as well. I think the cooler ferment temps would be very, very helpful to those delicate wines with a low temp tolerance yeast. And I already have an amazing tool in my barn. I just can't believe I haven't used it for winemaking. Thank you all for the inspiration!

You could also build an insulated space in the corner of a garage or somewhere and use a CoolBot controler and a small window A/C unit to cool it down. Just need some lumber and a couple sheets of foam board insulation.

 

[NorCal]

We are closing on two years since the original post. With 325 replies and over 34,000 views, it is clear that a lot of people come to the site to learn ways they can improve their wine. This is not an exhaustive wine making list, rather a list of items I think separates a good homemade wine from a 90+ point commercail wine.

I've changed the original order, and added items that I feel were good additions to the list. Like poker, most all wine making questions could be answered with "it depends". Whether these items are relevent to a given wine really depends on the situation.

Fruit quality – you can make bad wine with great grapes, but you cannot make great wine from bad grapes

Post crush berry sorting – removing MOG

Saignee - Pulling 15%-30% of the juice out of a red ferment

Cold soak – getting flavor and color out without the tannin

Yeast choice – multiple yeasts, non-sac yeast as options

Controlling fermentation temps - controlling the ferm temps to achieve objectives

Delestage – removing seeds from ferment

Time to press - Pressing pre AF completion on tannic wines, pressing post AF on wines that would benefit from extended maceration.

Free Run – Softer wine, with a higher level of fruitiness and less astringency

Barrel aging – micro ox

Blending - making additions that complement the wine

Bottle aging - give it a few years before releasing

 

[Tberns]

I just read the majority of this great thread! Very good information indeed. There were many mentions of "chillers" and diy cool boxes made from chest freezers. But I was wondering, would a walk in type cooler work for cold soaking and cooler ferments? If there was a mention of that here, I missed it so I would apologize. Reason being, we have a 14x14 walk in cooler in our barn that is used for storing produce in the warmer months. It can easily cool down to 32F. I ferment mostly in 20 gallon brut containers. I have never used the cooler in winemaking (don't know why). It seems like it would be a perfect answer to this. Cold soak for 2-3 days, then increase the ambient temp in the cooler to the ideal fermenting temp (or a few degrees lower). To drop the temps fast, I was thinking of tossing in a couple of frozen jugs when I place the containers in the cooler. Does anyone use a walk in cooler for this sort of thing?

I have an 8x8 walk in cooler as part of my home winery/vineyard setup and I love it. It is great to be able to adjust temps for different stages of the winemaking process. I just completed malolactic fermentation and will be racking into stainless tanks for bulk aging at 55 degrees. Not the least expensive option but a great long term investment.

 

[Gilmango]

Great to re-read this whole thread after starting to bottle my first 2021 wine from grapes (not the best grapes but I learned alot including the importance of blending), and being in the midst of fermenting my second 2022 wine from grapes which I have higher hopes for.

 

[meridaen]

Fantastic read. I'm 4 years in and absolutely looking to close the gap a bit. Have started giving a local wonery some free labour in exchange for some of his premium fruit come March (in Aus). I haven't tried saignee yet so I'm definitely going to give that a go.

Not so sold on the cold soak yet, but my thoughts on yeast are changing the longer I read the posts on here.

So glad to have found this place, even if I'm not a big poster just yet.

 

[MiBor]

I've changed the original order, and added items that I feel were good additions to the list. Like poker, most all wine making questions could be answered with "it depends". Whether these items are relevant to a given wine really depends on the situation.

I totally agree with the above @NorCal statement. I also feel that another line item should be added to the list, specifically co-inoculation of MLF bacteria for big reds. I tried it for the first time this year on some Lodi CS grapes and found that, along with controlling the fermenters' temperature to 18C, it allowed me to have a 25 day ferment on skins before the cap stopped forming. I have never experienced that before without the added CO2 produced by the malolactic conversion. 10 days was the longest I was able to keep the wine on the skins. @crushday hinted to the same thing in his most recent thread and maybe he could elaborate on the subject, having more experience with co-inoculation. I used VP-41 MLF bacteria for my wine this year (ICV D254 and D80 in separate fermenters) which extended the fermentation time on skins to 25 days. I checked the malic acid conversion with chromatography after pressing and found that the MLF was done, so I could add SO2 to protect the wine sooner and not have to wait another 4-6 weeks for a post AF MLF. The extended skin contact with the wine added a lot of extra flavor and not that much tannin as I was afraid it would do. I'm ready to barrel the wine and I'm curious how it will evolve in the coming months, but as it stand now it is really much better than any other wine I made at this early stage in its life.

 

[crushday]

@crushday hinted to the same thing in his most recent thread and maybe he could elaborate on the subject, having more experience with co-inoculation.

I'm a huge fan of co-inoculation. Like you, my ferments done in this style have an average duration of 21+ days. This provides a safe*** extended maceration due to the blanket of CO2, which is heavier than O2, over the must. ***As you know, decay needs oxygen as a catalyst to rot. I stop punching after 10 days, cover with a lid and gasket and let the must be. Once the skins have sunk enough to present wine, I press. After I settle for a couple of days, I rack off the gross lees to storage under airlock and topped up. Although I'm certain MLF has completed, I don't typically test for lactic until the next rack - about 2 months.

I recently experimented with adding the MLB after racking off the gross lees. I was motivated by an anomaly in my schedule and wasn't sure what life would look like 20-25 days after pitching yeast and if I'd be able to press at that time. I was trying to ferment for 10 days, settle and then go on a trip. Although I've yet to finish MLF on those batches of wine, perhaps they'll finish.

My conclusions are these: 1) Co-inoculation allows the yeast colony and the bacteria colony to grow and thrive at the same time - experience tells me they play well together and are not fighting for resources. 2) Since my approach to winemaking is using the minimum possible additives and adjuncts, co-inoculation doesn't require bacteria nutrients in my experience. I say this because I've never added MLB nutrients to the wine and until this last go around have quickly finished MLF consistently. 3) I will always co-inoculate moving forward since I've had great success doing so.

You've likely seen this from Lallemand Wine: https://lallemandwine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/WE4-Australia.pdf

Let me know what other questions you have and I'm always open to a phone call or zoom session. Just ask.

 

[jsbeckton]

Glad this is working for you. Just wanted to point out that you may be giving too much credit to the CO2 “blanket” idea. This is not really true that a steady blanket forms. For example, if you think about air, it’s a mix of gasses and not a series of layers, due to the ideal gas law properties.

What happens is that during active fermentation the high rate of CO2 being relaeased is providing protection but once that slows air (and O2) are indeed in contact with the wine which is why a lot of people press once fermentation slows.

https://beerandgardeningjournal.com/can-co2-form-a-blanket/

 

[crushday]

Glad this is working for you. Just wanted to point out that you may be giving too much credit to the CO2 “blanket” idea. This is not really true that a steady blanket forms. For example, if you think about air, it’s a mix of gasses and not a series of layers, due to the ideal gas law properties.

What happens is that during active fermentation the high rate of CO2 being relaeased is providing protection but once that slows air (and O2) are indeed in contact with the wine which is why a lot of people press once fermentation slows.

https://beerandgardeningjournal.com/can-co2-form-a-blanket/

Thanks for the explanation and the attached link providing the article. I read it. Not to belabor this idea, I'd like to point out that my fermentors get sealed, not air tight mind you, but enough to provide force exerted by the expressed CO2 gas particles colliding with the wall and lid of the fermentor. The only way O2 could enter the vessel is if a vacuum formed, which is unlikely due to the resident temperature of the must being higher than the ambient air. This is especially true when time is considered a factor in the process against the vigorous chemical process.

 

[jsbeckton]

Ahh, didn’t catch that your fermenter was sealed so you are sort of talking more of a “purged headspace” than “blanket of CO2”. The only time I tired this was with a wide mouth fermentor (fermonstor) I used to use for beer. It had an airlock but big enough opening to get the must in. Towards the end of fermentation, instead of opening to punch down the cap, I left it sealed and kinda sloshed it back and forth a bit.

My batches are too big for this now so I use the food grade Rubbermaid cans. This has a lid but nothing I’d trust with keeping enough air out for several weeks so I moved more to the cold soak side to increase contact time.

 

[TurkeyHollow]

Has anybody ever done side-by-side tests with a split batch and checked dissolved O2? I would love to see if the flood of Ar I've been evacuating O2 with actually has any efficacy. I've had good results so far (hope I didn't just jinx myself) so I'll continue to do so but I've read so many articles, it just would be nice to see something with real numbers other than the theories of fluid motion. I'm open minded about it - in my recent readings I've seen actual dissolved O2 studies comparing splash racking vs auto-siphon vs mechanical pump. To my surprise the pump won out over the auto-siphon. I can be convinced, I just need to see the data.

 

[meridaen]

Apart from the fact that article is pretty much an opinion piece, isn't the amount of CO2 coming from the wine still relatively high well after fermentation has slowed down?

 

[BarrelMonkey]

It might not be a bad idea to hang a little bag of dry ice in the (semi-sealed) fermenter, just to help augment any Co2 that's still off-gassing from the wine. Like this:

 

[TurkeyHollow]

It might not be a bad idea to hang a little bag of dry ice in the (semi-sealed) fermenter, just to help augment any Co2 that's still off-gassing from the wine. Like this:

View attachment 94083

That makes sense since the temperature will help the (cooler) CO2 sit right on the must. Again, it's all theory... I just like to see numbers to back up what I think makes sense. I like the thought, though.

 

[Rotundifolia]

One of the commercial wine makers in my making club told me to wait till the cap fell. If I did not have time to press that day, then add frozen water bottles, cover my brute with saran wrap and put outside at night (we live near Seattle area).

 

[Xlev]

We are closing on two years since the original post. With 325 replies and over 34,000 views, it is clear that a lot of people come to the site to learn ways they can improve their wine. This is not an exhaustive wine making list, rather a list of items I think separates a good homemade wine from a 90+ point commercail wine.

I've changed the original order, and added items that I feel were good additions to the list. Like poker, most all wine making questions could be answered with "it depends". Whether these items are relevent to a given wine really depends on the situation.

Fruit quality – you can make bad wine with great grapes, but you cannot make great wine from bad grapes

Post crush berry sorting – removing MOG

Saignee - Pulling 15%-30% of the juice out of a red ferment

Cold soak – getting flavor and color out without the tannin

Yeast choice – multiple yeasts, non-sac yeast as options

Controlling fermentation temps - controlling the ferm temps to achieve objectives

Delestage – removing seeds from ferment

Time to press - Pressing pre AF completion on tannic wines, pressing post AF on wines that would benefit from extended maceration.

Free Run – Softer wine, with a higher level of fruitiness and less astringency

Barrel aging – micro ox

Blending - making additions that complement the wine

Bottle aging - give it a few years before releasing

Lots of great information here,I enjoyed reading the post. @NorCal I have seen a lotnof talk about temperature during fermentation,but I would like to hear more specific. For a big red,if you could control temperature,what would be your ideal regime?How would you extend contact time?
Also you mentioned a winery has done a cold soak for you,how did that turn out?