WineXpert Degassing with vacuum pump while agitating

[Chilled]

Has anyone tried degassing their wine by using an electric vacuum pump and agitating the wine with a rod at the same time?
I've read many threads about vacuum racking. But I only rack my kits one time before fining and I don't enjoy washing carboys.

I remember reading somewhere that someone used a fiberglass rod through an orange rubber cap with two holes and a vacuum pump connected to the other hole. I think they used a brake bleeder.

I tried this using a fiberglass bowfishing arrow (new and sanitized) and a hand brake bleeder. Stirring the wine with only a mild vacuum to start with quickly brought about 3/4" of heavy foam to the surface and instantly dropped the vacuum from about 10"hg to 1-3"hg. This was after using a MixStir for 15 to 20 minutes.
I would then have to pump the vacuum back up by hand and repeat the process.
After about 4 or maybe 5 cycles I removed the rod and orange cap and used a one hole bung and pumped the vacuum up to 20"hg. I did not notice any bubbles coming up so I left it for 15-20 minutes and the vacuum held at 19-20". Thus I decided the wine was thoroughly degassed.
To start I could only get 9-10"hg. But after the 2nd or 3rd time it would get up to 15-16"hg. I'm guessing I just couldn't pump fast enough to keep up with the CO2. But stirring with the rod dropped the vacuum almost immediately.

The fiberglass bow fishing arrow is only about 5/16" to 3/8" in diameter and whips through the wine quite easily. It seems to agitate the gas out of the wine more quickly than just using the vacuum alone.

So, I was thinking, if we tried this using an electric vacuum pump while stirring the wine, a 6 gallon carboy could probably be completely degassed in maybe 10 to 15 minutes without using the MixStir first. I hope to find out when I try it in just over a week.

Thus my question, has anyone tried degassing by stirring the wine while under a vacuum with an electric vacuum pump?

Dave

 

[Bacci]

could you put a 3/8in racking cane through center hole of orange carboy cap instead of an arrow while pulling a vacuum or would the wine pull through the open end of racking cane? you could agitate/stir the cane as you're pulling a vacuum on the other tip of carboy cap with a 3/8in tubing attached to vacuum pump. this could be done safely with a carboy that's not quite full of wine at the neck to prevent overflow to the pump or have a reserve container in place.

 

[derunner]

I think it depends on the kit, some may be different, but the ones I have done have you leave the lees from secondary which includes some of the bentonite in during degassing, stabilization, and clearing. so you need only one clean carboy to rack to with a vacuum, but then you can rack back to the original carboy. I do this twice and that generally gets most/all the gas out. I then check with the hand brake bleeder pump. So I do not have to clean a lot of carboys. and the one I clean is the original empty so I can clean easily to do the same with another batch.

 

[vacuumpumpman]

I like derunner idea - just rack it normally under vacuum and the gas will come out. The splash racking cane seems to speed up the process.
I came up with idea of splash racking when I introduced a marble in a carboy and moved it by tilting the carboy while under vacuum - wow the co2 that was released was incredible. So the splash racking cane - so far has been the best improvement in removal of CO2.
Yes I have thought about a magnetic stir plate as well - I dont like metal spinning around in a glass vessel under vacuum.

As for washing carboys - I just transfered 12 carboys tonight after dinner. it took about 1 1/2 hours from start to finish. I rinse the carboy once I am done - then add meta and use the carboy cleaner -http://brewandwinesupply.com/index.php?route=product/product&filter_name=carboy%20cleaner&product_id=217
and I am ready to do another transfer -

 

[FTC Wines]

I have been Vac degassing for almost 2 years now, many times when I've pulled 20" for say 15/20 min if I swirl the carboy the CO2 just jumps out of the wine. You only have to shake gently for their to be an eruption in the wine. Never lift the carboy just rock it side to side. Note the carboy is on a foam mat. Any comments? Roy

 

[bkisel]

I have been Vac degassing for almost 2 years now, many times when I've pulled 20" for say 15/20 min if I swirl the carboy the CO2 just jumps out of the wine. You only have to shake gently for their to be an eruption in the wine. Never lift the carboy just rock it side to side. Note the carboy is on a foam mat. Any comments? Roy

I noticed that once but wasn't sure whether or not more gas was coming out as I rocked the carboy or that I was also putting it back into the wine just to see it come out once more - gas just seemed to continually come out. I'll have to try it again with the understand that it is an effective method.

 

[FTC Wines]

Bkisel, I thought the same thing, but then said to myself " how can I put air back in the wine when it's under vacuum" not a chemist, just a practical wine maker. Roy

 

[SouthernChemist]

Ideally, you'd have something in the wine to act as a nucleation site for gas bubbles. Any object in the carboy would probably help. Even a scratch on the inside of the glass can help (some Champagne bottles are intentionally scratched on the inside for this reason). I think Tim V. of Winexpert did a blog post once about putting a bottling brush inside the carboy. In short, try putting something (sanitized) in the wine to help the gas come out. It can be very temperature dependent, though. Combined with just regular vacuum racking, this can be quite effective.

 

[GreginND]

Splash racking under vacuum with the AI1WP is the way to go. I just transferred my Brianna which just finished fermentation this way. The CO2 poured out. And I'm happy to see in less than 24 hours the sediment is falling and it's becoming beautifully clear. I've never had a wine clear this fast - vacuum racking to remove the CO2 really helps.

 

[Chilled]

Reply to answers

BACCI, I think you would have to plug or seal the end of the racking cane you use to stir with in order to pull any vacuum in the carboy.

DERUNNER, I mostly make WE Island Mist kits. I start ferment in a primary bucket. Then rack to a carboy to finish fermentation. I then degas and fine in that carboy. So, without dirtying another carboy I would only vacuum rack one time just before fermentation is finished. That is why I thought stirring under vacuum may be a good option for me.

STEVE, It looks like you found out the same thing I did. Agitation of the wine while under vacuum causes the co2 to more quickly/easily leave the wine.
I may vacuum rack from the primary to the carboy and then try stirring while under vacuum in that carboy to finish degassing. That way, it may be quick and no extra carboy to clean.
My wine area doesn't have a place to rinse/clean the carboy. So I have to carry it up and down the stairs to clean. I know, I need a better wine room. But for now I'm working with what I have.

ROY, It sounds like what I wanted to try will work. I am trying to save a little time and effort if I can.

BKISEL, I think it is similar to shaking a carbonated soft drink. The agitation causes the co2 to try and erupt out.

ROY, I agree. I'm no chemist either. But that sounds logical to me.

SOUTHERNCHEMIST, Looks like you posted while I was making a reply. Thanks, that is what I was thinking. I usually try to have the wine at about 75 F when degassing.

GREGINND, I understand that vacuum racking can be very effective at degassing. Glad it worked so well for you. I'm just looking to try a slightly different method. As stated I will probably vacuum rack one time from primary to carboy.

Thanks to all of you for your comments and input.
I have a batch that will be ready to degas and fine in about a week. I'll try stirring while under vacuum and see how long it takes and post my results. The next one I set on, I will try vacuum racking from the primary to carboy and then, when ready for degassing and fining I'll degas by stirring while under vacuum. Vacuum racking from primary to carboy may reduce the amount of co2 I have to take out later. Maybe just another way to skin the cat.
Dave

 

[Chilled]

Update - Results

Well, the idea of agitating/stirring the wine while under vacuum took about 30 minutes. The wine was at 75 Fahrenheit. The reds took about 30 minutes each and a white about 20 minutes. It was almost unbelievable how the bubbles foamed and just kept coming out of the reds.
From what I have read, I think Steve's vacuum racking idea is going to be a bit faster and easier.

I do believe this method has less chance to introduce Oxygen into the wine than just stirring to degas with a MixStir as I used to do.
But, for speed and ease, it looks like vacuum degassing may the way to go.

As Ben Franklin said "I have now eliminated one more possibility."

Kudos to Steve.
Dave

 

[sour_grapes]

Chilled: When you say "agitate," do you just rock the rod (arrow) back and forth, or do you try to rotate it? I had a hard time seeing how you could rotate it while retaining the vacuum seal on the orange cap. Now I think you must just be swishing the arrow back and forth. Can you clarify for me? TIA.

 

[Chilled]

Paul,
I was whipping the rod in a circular motion very quickly, while holding the cap with the other hand. I used the orange cap which is flexible and the arrow fits very tightly. I would go about 3 or 4 turns in one direction and then reverse direction for 3 or 4 turns. This would immediately bring up about an inch of form using 12 to 15 inches of vacuum. The foam would dissipate quickly. I was stirring for most of the 30 minutes. In all honesty this particular kit seemed to have more CO2 than the others I have done. The white kit didn't take nearly as long. Probably 20 minutes.

Dave

 

[don67]

The orange-cap-stir-and-vacuum method is highly effective; perhaps too much so when you're just getting started.

What I like to do is start with vacuum-only, and then as the amount of C02 reduces I start rocking the carboy at the same time. It helps to have a little airspace.

I find the stirring-only method - even with the drill attachment I fashioned - takes forever and is difficult to gauge as it creates its own foam long after the CO2 is gone.