WineXpert Degassing question

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erk1817

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I was degassing my wine today with my new Fizz-X (that replaced a broken wine whip), but there was no foam formation after several minutes of stirring. I decided to stir by hand to make sure all the gas was gone and I got a lot of foam formation. So, I have two questions:


1) Does anyone have any advice on how to make the Fizz-X work better? I tried to follow the instructions, so I was stirring for about 15 seconds at a time and waiting about 15 seconds in between stirring episodes. I also didn't want to push the speed too much, but I still had a deep vortex form.


2) Any ideas on what I should do if I can't get the Fizz-X to work? I stirred with the paddle on and off for about 45 minutes, but there is still a lot of foam every time I go back and stir some more. I tried stirring in short spurts, longer periods, reversing direction, but nothing made the foaming stop.


Thanks for any help you can provide.
 
Bout the only thang I could say here erk is you sure got a helluva arm on ya if you can out stir the fizz-x
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No, seriously. I don't understand either what exactly is going on but I do know that I personally start my fizz-x out slowly, gradually binging it up to full speed and keeping it there for 2-3 minutes. Edited by: Waldo
 
I am sure one of the experts will chime in here soon but from what I have read just because there is foam don't mean there is "gas" in the wine.


Stirring itself is going to pull oxygen into the must and I always thought that was what the foam was, not CO2. I dunno though. I just know every kit I have made had the "foam" and none of them have any detectable CO2 in them.


Smurfe
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If you were degassing, were you also stabilizing with potassium sorbate and
metabisulfite? With the airlock back in place, watch for offgassing pressure
inside the carboy to lessen or stop. Chances are you've done the job.
 
Thanks for the input. I had already added the stabilizing agents before I noticed that the Fizz-X wasn't getting the job done. When I stir, I see bubbles coming up the side of the carboy, so I think there still must be CO2 in there. Bilbo -- by offgassing pressure do you just mean bubbles coming up through the airlock? I haven't noticed any of those, but I haven't been watching closely. Also, I have read a couple of things on other posts about temperature and degassing. I'm at 66 degrees, is that a problem?


Thanks again, everyone.
 
Trying to degas your wine at 66 degrees is much harder than if it was warmer ~70-75 degrees. This isbecause a liquid (in this case wine) can absorb and hold more dissolved gas at lower temperature that at a warmer one. Warming your wine up will help since there will be less dissolved gas to start off with before stirring.


Here is a technical explanation:


The reason for this gas solubility relationship with temperature is very similar to the reason that vapor pressure increases with temperature. Increased temperature causes an increase in kinetic energy. The higher kinetic energy causes more motion in molecules which break intermolecular bonds and escape from solution.


The action of stirring your wine also creates more kinetic energy which is what helps force the gas out of solution.


I do not understand why you are having problems with the Fizz-X. What type of drill are you using and what speed?


The Fizz-X also seems to work better when spinning in a clockwise rotation or forward on your drill. I think the directions might say not to reverse the direction but I do the help get a better stirring. When you get a deep vortex you lose the action youwant because the liquid is spinning in all the same direction in one mass. This is why many of us have had the foam volcano when starting to stir with the Fizz-X because you are getting a great mixing and agitation of the liquid from being still to being stirred.


Sorry this was so long winded but I hope it helps you understand the process better. Below is more info from an old post that addressed this awhile back.


Just a quick redux of the stirring issue for my (Winexpert) kits:


<UL>
<LI>If you've fermented at the right starting volume, the right temperature, and you've achieved the recommended specific gravity levels, then you'll be able to stir the wine to de-gas within the time-frames specified in the instructions.

<LI>If the wine was started at anything other than the full 6 US-gallons (23 litres) or it was fermented cooler than 68 F, or if your gravity readings were not at or below the recommended levels when you did the process, you will not experience consistent success.
<LI>You only need to stir a Winexpert kit four times.

<UL>
<LI>On day one, you have to beat the snot out of the must to mix it properly. A good, arm-cracking one minute stir to froth it up and mix the juice and water will get you off to a good start and a thorough fermentation
<LI>On fining/stabilising day, after you've double-checked the SG, then you can first stir the kit without adding anything--and without racking it off the sediment! (Unless it's a Crushendo kit, but that's covered in the instructions--no racking for any other kit. If you choose to rack it, you will not experience consistent results. This first stirring will be to greatly de-gas the wine, prior to adding any of the fining agents or stablisers. Beat the hell out of it, for one full minute. Use a watch or clock--one minute is a lot longer than most people think. If you can scractch your head with your stirring hand after that one minute, you haven't stirred hard enough. It should be an all-out blizzard of effort that costs you all of your strength, and you should see spots in front of your eyes (see why I tell people to buy a drill-mounted stirring whip?)
<LI>Add the sorbate and the sulphite, and stir again, for one full minute. This time you may break one or two small bones in your stirring arm, but don't slow down--if anything, stir harder.

<LI>Add the fining agent and the F-Pack (if the kit has one) and stir for one more full minute. Have the paramedics standing by with a bag of ice to carry your stirring arm to the hospital where it can be re-attached. Top up with water and call it a day.
</LI>[/list]</LI>[/list]


Now, if you have fizzy wine after this regimen, you don't have a stirring issue. You have eiither got an incomplete or ongoing fermentation, or you're mistaking foam for fizz, or you may have an inicipient lactic acid bacterial infection that is making a bit of CO2 in the wine.

The amount of stirring described will reduce SO2 slightly in the kit: however, the amount it is reduced by is minimal, because rather than uptaking oxygen during this process, the wine out-gasses CO2, which actually scrubs some of the oxygen out of the wine.

If you stir at a time when the wine is not saturated with CO2, you may experience reduced SO2 and potentially expose the wine to oxidation. But then, why are you stirring wine if it's not fizzy?

Hope this helps outl

Tim Vandergrift
Technical Services Manager, Winexpert Limited.
 
What if you have stiirredthe WE kits as directed and at the proper SG, at the proper temperatures at the given times as stated above...BUT there just doesn't seem to be the vastquantities of Co2 bubbles I expected to see departing?Where did they go?
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I have since bottled this batch...should I be conserned?


The case of the missing bubbles...


Perplexed....


JC
 
Erk,


Make sure that your FizzX arms are at 90 degrees to the shaft. Sometimes the foaming with the Fizzx is not as noticable as it is with a paddle. Trust me you can't out stir a Fizzx, think about it!


How did you determine if there was "no detectable CO2"? I haven't found a way to measure it yet.


A way to assure that your wine is CO2 free. Buy a vaccuvine pump, along with the orange carboy cover. Use the Vaccuvin and the adapter to pull a vaccum on the carboy. If you don't see bubbles, you have zero CO2. This is a no fail test.





Hal
 
Solution 2.

Drink all the wine.
If you had CO2 it is now gone forever.
Unfortunately so is the wine.
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Edited by: peterCooper
 
Hal Maulden said:
Erk,


Make sure that your FizzX arms are at 90 degrees to the shaft. Sometimes the foaming with the Fizzx is not as noticable as it is with a paddle. Trust me you can't out stir a Fizzx, think about it!


How did you determine if there was "no detectable CO2"? I haven't found a way to measure it yet.


Hal


I didn't have a "fizzx" I used my long pastic paddle. I stirred, stirred, stirred, and stirred...no foam no bubbles nada! How did I determine if there was CO2? My eyes...I didn't see any bubbles after rapidly and repeatedly stirring.


I am now on kit #2...this time after stirring the much anticipated CO2 bubblesdid appear unlike in the first kit.


A vacuum pump you say...Next trip to the local wine store I will go looking for this device.


JC
 
Hal Maulden said:
Erk,


A way to assure that your wine is CO2 free. Buy a vaccuvine pump, along with the orange carboy cover. Use the Vaccuvin and the adapter to pull a vaccum on the carboy. If you don't see bubbles, you have zero CO2. This is a no fail test.


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Wait...an idea crossed my mind....Edmonton is at an elevation of over 2,000 feet....therefore less atmospheric pressure... the Vaccuvin reduces air pressure... Possibly living here I do ....the CO2 bubble are more easily able to exit the carboy. That is why I didn't see much in the way of bubbles.
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JC
 
The average decrease of air pressure is 1 inHg for every 1000 ft of elevation.


sea level air pressure is 29.92 inHg


at 2000 ft air pressure is 27.92 inHg


JC, You have a great headstarton degassing over us folks at lower elevations.
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masta said:
JC, You have a great headstarton degassing over us folks at lower elevations.
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This would explain why my Coors beer is always flat!!
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In addition to what Hal had to say about the Fizz-X arms needing to be
extended at right angles to the shaft, the particular "flip" of each arm
seems to make a difference. Depending upon how the arms are hanging
at rest, one opposed to the other, their action when spinning will either
stir the must or create the dreaded "volcano vortex". Try flipping each
arm up and around, popping it out past the shaft, so it hangs on the
other side (do each one so they are still opposing) to see which stirring
action you get. I've always assumed that the position in which they
don't produce the vortex is the proper stirring position. Masta, any
thoughts on this?
 
Of course, it may be instructive to remember that wine making is an
ancient activity, and only within less than 100 years have winemakers
been able to pull a vacuum with mechanical assistance. The old way,
patiently waiting, will likely work for those willing to wait...

On the other hand, playing around with gadgets is a lot of fun!
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Sorry, this isn't related to this post other then it's a degassing question. I am looking for the post where someone made a Vac-u-vin into a degasser by attaching it to a piece of PVC pipe and attaching that to a bung. I have looked and looked and just can't seem to find it.
 
Nope, but thanks for trying. I spent about a half hour in Home Depot tonight trying to find parts that would work, found a nice double ended barbed tube fitting. It was super simple, fit into a #6 bung with a little persuasion and the other end fit into the Vac-U-Vin fitting.
 

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