crab apple stuck

[zimmer2]

I picked/pressed enough crab apples to get 6 gallons of juice so am trying to get wine made from straight crab apple juice

9/12
sg of juice was 1.070
added enough simple syrup to get to 1.090
1 1/2 tsp tannin
1 1/2 tsp pectic enzyme
1 1/2 tsp acid blend
3 tsp nutrient
1/2 tsp kmeta
put brew belt on primary

9/13
pitched RedStar "Montrachet"

9/14
sg 1.086 @ 72 degF

9/15
sg 1.056 @ 74 degF

9/16
sg 1.042 @ 68 degF
3 tsp nutrient

9/18
sg 1.024 @ 72 degF

9/19 [took of brew belt to slow down a little]
sg 1.020

9/20
sg 1.018
transfer to secondary w/airlock

9/22
sg 1.012

9/24
sg 1.012
put brew belt on secondary
this is where it struck! I stirred and added 3 tsp nutrient. Airlock bubbling every 20 seconds

9/26
sg 1.012
no bubbles in airlock

9/28
sg 1.012 made yeast starter with D47 and added to must. Looked like fermentation was going, it was bubbling some

9/29
sg 1.012
no bubbles

10/1
sg 1.012
no bubbles


-I tried to get an TA on it but cannot seem to get color change, it will change but clear up as soon as I shake it. Emptied entire syringe in it and even 1/2 syringe more to last attempt Tried 3 times so maybe my test kit is bad?

-I only have PH strips and they say 3.6

-Is this as far as 100% crab apple juice will ferment?

-It was a very hard/fast/foaming fermentation to start.

-It smells like crab apples and is sour to the taste

-Any suggestions or direction would be GREAT

 

[zimmer2]

I have a small 3/4 gallon jug w/ airlock sitting beside carboy full of must also. Checked sg of it [1.012], mixed 50/50 with 100% apple juice, sg was then [1.031]........will see if it starts bubbling again?

Anyone have any ideas?

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

I would have suggested not adding any acid or tannins to a crab apple juice, did you taste this first? Impressive that they are at 1.070, any idea what kind of crabs? I would think you want to backsweeten this a little so maybe being at 1.012 is not so bad. Dont add any more nutrient, they cant use it now, past time for that. Your acid test, seems like you are giving up to soon, you might have a ton of acid from the crabs plus what you added, might add 20 mls to see if it stays pink. GOOD LUCK, WVMJ

 

[BernardSmith]

I guess I have a number of questions. I have some difficulty imagining that crab apples when pressed would have as much sugar as a gravity of 1.070 suggests. I would have thought they would have close to half that. So I wonder if your reading was perhaps as a result of the pulp as much as the sugar... In which case adding enough sugar to raise the gravity to a nominal 1.090 would in effect to raise the gravity to about 1.060.. so your reading of 1.012 may not be due to residual sugar... Never tried this before but might kits used by diabetics to test their blood sugar be usable to test for residual sugar? - In other words, I wonder if in fact you have fermented your apple juice dry.
I would also have thought that crab apples have more than enough tannin in them already and I would have thought that they would be more acidic than a pH of 3.6.
Pitching a new batch of yeast to a fermentation that is well under way will put that second batch of yeast under incredible strain. You are asking the cells to transfer liquid that is very alcoholic. It is IMO like giving a fellow who has just come out of a coma a bottle of whisky when he asks for a drink of water.
I have never tried to ferment crab apples but you might try reducing the acidity by adding some K-carbonate although if the pH is really 3.6 that should be OK. Trouble is that I don't trust the use of pH strips. I think that they are incredibly hard to read and are unreliable.
But assuming that the 1.012 does indicate unfermented sugar
What I would do is a variation on what you did with the starter. It may not work ... but...

I would activate a new batch of yeast .EC 1118 is the killer yeast, I think. And I would add that yeast to a cup of apple juice - not crab apple juice , just plain sweet apple juice. When the yeast is really active I would add 1 cup (same volume as your "starter") of your crab apple juice. If that continues to be active then after a couple of hours I would TWO cups of the crab apple. Again, if this remains active I would double the volume by adding FOUR cups and repeat this doubling every couple of hours. After a half a day all your crab apple batch should have been added to the starter (NOT the starter to the stalled fermentation). Of course , if the first cup of crab apple you add does not take off then there is something else going on beyond my limited experience

 

[zimmer2]

I would have suggested not adding any acid or tannins to a crab apple juice, did you taste this first? Impressive that they are at 1.070, any idea what kind of crabs? I would think you want to backsweeten this a little so maybe being at 1.012 is not so bad. Dont add any more nutrient, they cant use it now, past time for that. Your acid test, seems like you are giving up to soon, you might have a ton of acid from the crabs plus what you added, might add 20 mls to see if it stays pink. GOOD LUCK, WVMJ

I do not know what kind of crabs. I will try acid test again and keep going until I see pink color stay.

 

[zimmer2]

I guess I have a number of questions. I have some difficulty imagining that crab apples when pressed would have as much sugar as a gravity of 1.070 suggests. I would have thought they would have close to half that. So I wonder if your reading was perhaps as a result of the pulp as much as the sugar... In which case adding enough sugar to raise the gravity to a nominal 1.090 would in effect to raise the gravity to about 1.060.. so your reading of 1.012 may not be due to residual sugar... Never tried this before but might kits used by diabetics to test their blood sugar be usable to test for residual sugar? - In other words, I wonder if in fact you have fermented your apple juice dry.
I would also have thought that crab apples have more than enough tannin in them already and I would have thought that they would be more acidic than a pH of 3.6.
Pitching a new batch of yeast to a fermentation that is well under way will put that second batch of yeast under incredible strain. You are asking the cells to transfer liquid that is very alcoholic. It is IMO like giving a fellow who has just come out of a coma a bottle of whisky when he asks for a drink of water.
I have never tried to ferment crab apples but you might try reducing the acidity by adding some K-carbonate although if the pH is really 3.6 that should be OK. Trouble is that I don't trust the use of pH strips. I think that they are incredibly hard to read and are unreliable.
But assuming that the 1.012 does indicate unfermented sugar
What I would do is a variation on what you did with the starter. It may not work ... but...

I would activate a new batch of yeast .EC 1118 is the killer yeast, I think. And I would add that yeast to a cup of apple juice - not crab apple juice , just plain sweet apple juice. When the yeast is really active I would add 1 cup (same volume as your "starter") of your crab apple juice. If that continues to be active then after a couple of hours I would TWO cups of the crab apple. Again, if this remains active I would double the volume by adding FOUR cups and repeat this doubling every couple of hours. After a half a day all your crab apple batch should have been added to the starter (NOT the starter to the stalled fermentation). Of course , if the first cup of crab apple you add does not take off then there is something else going on beyond my limited experience

I did strain the juice while I pressed, I know there is still a lot of pulp in it.

Unfortunately all I have is PH strips at his point, but I am going to try acid test again and keep going until I see color change stay. Will post what I see.

I do not have any EC1118 on hand right now. some on order. I have RC212 and RED STAR Montrachet on hand. EC1118 will be next week.

Should I rack off lees or let it be until try w/ EC1118 starter

 

[zimmer2]

Did acid test again.....all I can say is WOW

10.5 mL before color change stayed.
10.5 x .25 = 2.625 % Tartaric
10.5 x 1.6 = 16.8 ppt Sulfuric

Is it possible to correct this being this far off?

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

What is the normality of your NAOH? I think you might be calculating about 2X to high. You have a couple of options, make another cider with a very low acid apple, hard to find unless you can find some heirloom sweets, or dilute with water, I know very painful to do and loose all that taste, or backsweeten it like crazy with honey into a dessert wine. You can also do a MLF, but with the massive amount of acid you have even if its half of what you measured I dont think the MLF could eat enough of it to matter.

I applaud your picking that many crabapples, thats a lot of work, but see if you can go our and pick a lot more other kinds and use this to blend into them. Our crabapple tree is also high in acid and high in tannins, a joy to eat but you have to be of the right mindset before you bite into one! WVMJ

 

[zimmer2]

What is the normality of your NAOH? I think you might be calculating about 2X to high. You have a couple of options, make another cider with a very low acid apple, hard to find unless you can find some heirloom sweets, or dilute with water, I know very painful to do and loose all that taste, or backsweeten it like crazy with honey into a dessert wine. You can also do a MLF, but with the massive amount of acid you have even if its half of what you measured I dont think the MLF could eat enough of it to matter.

I applaud your picking that many crabapples, thats a lot of work, but see if you can go our and pick a lot more other kinds and use this to blend into them. Our crabapple tree is also high in acid and high in tannins, a joy to eat but you have to be of the right mindset before you bite into one! WVMJ

What is the normality of your NAOH? I am at work now and kit is at home so I am not sure
I dont see anything on Bottle of Sodium Hydroxide or on kit box [kit #6850], Bottle of Sodium Hydroxide is BSG brand #6855


Apples: I do not have access to apples except what I can get at the store. Can I use some concentrate or juice. Also add some calcium carbonate

I do have 20# of Honey


Picking was pretty easy as I have 4 trees and it took four 5 gallon buckets of crabs for juice, then I picked 2 more buckets for jelly.

 

[zimmer2]

I have a small 3/4 gallon jug w/ airlock sitting beside carboy full of must also. Checked sg of it [1.012], mixed 50/50 with 100% apple juice, sg was then [1.031]........will see if it starts bubbling again?

Anyone have any ideas?

This was bubbling away this morning

 

[BernardSmith]

Did acid test again.....all I can say is WOW

10.5 mL before color change stayed.
10.5 x .25 = 2.625 % Tartaric
10.5 x 1.6 = 16.8 ppt Sulfuric

Is it possible to correct this being this far off?

what pH is this equivalent to?

 

[zimmer2]

what pH is this equivalent to?

All I have is strips and they said 3.4-3.6 that is why I pitched the yeast. I now have a PH meter on order and then I can tell you.

 

[BernardSmith]

Apologies, I thought when you said you repeated the acid test you were referring to the pH. You meant the TA. My mistake.

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

Paste a copy of the instructions, you have to be doing something wrong in the calculations. For a normal wine at like around 0.6% you would only be adding a couple of mls and its hard to get accuracy at a low level, good to see its started but I think you are doing some calculation wrong. WVMJ

Did acid test again.....all I can say is WOW

10.5 mL before color change stayed.
10.5 x .25 = 2.625 % Tartaric
10.5 x 1.6 = 16.8 ppt Sulfuric

Is it possible to correct this being this far off?

 

[zimmer2]

Here are the instructions out of the kit.

The fermenting that started when I added apple juice..... quit. I tried multiple samples with sugar/honey and apple/peach/cherry extracts. cannot cover up the acid bite.

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

OK, looks like you are using 0.1N NaOH and you are doing the calcs correctly. Looks like you got yourself a blender. There are ways to reduce the acid but they all affect the flavor and yours is so high. If you found some insipid watered down apple juice from the store and diluted this must with that low acid apple juice you could bring the acid levels down but when you start out with such a high acid levels blending it down is about the only thing you can do, MLF, Yeast, Acidex isnt going to knock down that high an acid level and give you something enjoyable to taste. You could let it finish fermenting and bottle it and use it to top off low acid wines or other ciders or use as a mixer. WVMJ

 

[zimmer2]

OK, looks like you are using 0.1N NaOH and you are doing the calcs correctly. Looks like you got yourself a blender. There are ways to reduce the acid but they all affect the flavor and yours is so high. If you found some insipid watered down apple juice from the store and diluted this must with that low acid apple juice you could bring the acid levels down but when you start out with such a high acid levels blending it down is about the only thing you can do, MLF, Yeast, Acidex isnt going to knock down that high an acid level and give you something enjoyable to taste. You could let it finish fermenting and bottle it and use it to top off low acid wines or other ciders or use as a mixer. WVMJ

WVMJ

Thanks for your input/advise, I was planning on taking the one gallon jug, mixing it w 4 gallons of apple juice and fermenting again. When I get my PH meter in the mail that is my plan.

 

[zimmer2]

Today I put into primary
12 cans apple concentrate, 27 cans water
1 gallon Crab apple must
simple syrup to get sg @ 1.081
9# cherries in a bag
25 drops liquid pectic enzyme

Do I need to add nutrient and Kmeta?


TA is at .78
PH will have to wait until I get meter

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

Yes, you are growing new yeasts so you need more nutrient, KM, maybe not since you are innoculating it with a big gallon starter of something that has a bunch of yeast already in it. Did you check your apple conc didnt have preservatives? TA at .78 you can live with easy. WVMJ

 

[zimmer2]

Concentrate says only acid added. I will add some nutrient and see if it takes off. wait 24 hours and if not add Kmeta and wait another 24 hours then pitch new yeast.