Christmas wine recipe

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Raptor99

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I plan to backsweeten it. I'll probably wait until it clears, then taste it and test the pH again.
 

David Violante

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Thanks @Raptor99 I just started our first Christmas wine following your modified recipe. I sweetened to 1.090 and the pH started at 2.9 but I edged it up to 3.2. Adding K1V1116 yeast this afternoon.
 

Raptor99

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I reached my cranberry clementine wine again. The pH was 2.88. That did not seem to inhibit the yeast (K1-V116), but it is a little too acidic for drinking. I added 1/8 tsp. of Potassium Bicarbonate to 1 gallon to raise the pH a little bit. The next time I rack I will measure it again. I want to adjust the pH a little bit at a time.
 

David Violante

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So I’m curious about nutrient addition in non-grape fruit wine.

In mead, @dmw_chef suggests 1/2 G per gallon of Fermaid K and O at 24, 48, 72 hours and then at 1/3 break for a total of 2 G per gallon.

In grape wine making it appears (generally) to be something like DAP full dose at signs of fermentation. Then when 1/3 of the way through a half dose of Fermaid K and the same at 2/3 the way through (total of 1.5 G/gallon). If needed, Fermaid O below 1.030.

Is making other fruit wine closer to making grape wine? I feel an “it depends” coming...
 

Vinobeau

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I've been making fruit wine for 49 years and have always added all the dry ingredients together with the fruit and water, except for the yeast. Maybe twice the Cranberry wines have needed a second pack of yeast. I've never added Fermaid X,Y or Z, just the generic nutrient. Most recipes that I've read add it all at once.
 

David Violante

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I’ve just done about two hours of research on YAN variations and nutrient needs among fruits and the answer is definitely “it depends”. YAN varies widely by cultivar, year, climate, harvest date, and viticultural practices (like adding nitrogen to the soil or not), and nutrient addition to a must of any kind depends on both YAN and individual yeast needs.

Cornell extension has some good information, as does University of Vermont. The Australian Wine Institute has some particular levels for grapes and a DAP calculator. Penn State has some great information in addition to a good explanation of why it’s bad to add DAP at the beginning of fermentation. Of course, WineMaker has a great explanation as well.

So... part science, part experience, part style. I haven’t found anything yet that gives a general range of where fruits land on the YAN scale, except for this article by the NYS AG Experimental Station in Geneva. It seems like GoFerm is helpful at the beginning and end of fermentation as are Fermaid products 1/3 and 2/3 through fermentations.

I don’t have access to YAN instruments, hence my original question in trying to determine what to add when, but it does sound like “it depends”. Too little nutrient will stress the yeast and cause delays or a stuck fermentation and H2S. Too much can cause a huge proliferation of yeast and then a stress when they run out of food and also excess food for other organisms if not enough sulfite is used at the end of fermentation.

There’s a lot of discussion about adding it all up front versus over the course of the fermentation. I believe these may be style or pragmatic points, at the moment. I’m still interested in what everyone does and how “other than grape” fruit wines fare in this arena.
 

Raptor99

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@David Violante thanks for sharing your research. For my fruit wines I usually add DAP at the same time as I add the yeast. I am getting ready to start my first batch of mead, so I am reading up on TOSNA and have purchased some Fermaid O. I don't know if using Fermaid O or TOSNA for fruit wine would make any difference in the final flavor. It would be an interesting experiment to make two otherwise identical batches to compare the effects of different approaches to nutrients.

It sounds like the ideal situation is for the yeast to run out of nutrients at the same time that it finished metabolizing all the sugar. I'm not sure how we can do that at home without the ability to measure YAN. I'm sure that different types of fruit and different amounts of fruit per gallon would require different amounts of nutrient.
 

dmw_chef

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Advanced Nutrients in Meadmaking is a great accessible primer on YAN and nutrition that is likely also very applicable to grape and fruit winemaking in terms of the broad concepts. (It even cites some members here!)

In mead, @dmw_chef suggests 1/2 G per gallon of Fermaid K and O at 24, 48, 72 hours and then at 1/3 break for a total of 2 G per gallon.
Note: That's going to be dependent on yeast, OG, and YAN contributions from fruit. That schedule is for that OG, yeasts in QA23's YAN bracket, and the assumption that your must has <40 YAN as is. If you want a schedule that will push EC-1118 to 21-22% it's gonna be different.

It sounds like the ideal situation is for the yeast to run out of nutrients at the same time that it finished metabolizing all the sugar.
I believe almost all YAN is ideally consumed by the time the yeast has finished the growth phase.
 

dmw_chef

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For my fruit wines I usually add DAP at the same time as I add the yeast.
Not a good idea. DAP at pitch can stress the yeast and create of flavors. I usually see it recommended to add DAP at 24h after pitch.

I am getting ready to start my first batch of mead, so I am reading up on TOSNA and have purchased some Fermaid O.
TOSNA is a fine schedule that works well up to about 14%. After that, some of the assumptions it makes start to break down a bit; basically the hypothesis that I and some of my friends share is that it over estimates the effectiveness of Fermaid O, which is propped up by not including the YAN contribution of Go-Ferm in its calculations, a crutch that breaks down as you push to higher ABVs.
 

Eric Huser

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I pitch yeast the next day, but always add everything else all at once. What I'm finding out about this wine gig is just like the brewing gig, most of what is taught and is considered gospel is just someone trying to make a very easy process, super difficult.
ie - degassing, degassing for 10 to 30 minutes, adding nutrients on a hourly schedule, reracking 4 times, aging 1 year minimum, creating a yeast slurry. You get my point. These all do work great, but not needed in most cases.
 

David Violante

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Follow up~ tasted it just the other day to see how it was progressing and it tastes more like a grapefruit wine. Will the cranberry come through at some point? It’s nice and clear, very tart. I’ll have to back sweeten a little.
 

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