Bitterness

[the_rayway]

Today I was working on several of my country wines and meads. Mostly one gallon batches and a three gallon batch.

They are all made with different ingredients from bananas to raspberries, honeys to white sugar, teas and flowers. Different batches of chemicals used over the year, and different yeasts.

They are all within the one year mark as well. I'm using solid winemaking practices, sanitization, etc. etc.

Every single batch is bitter. I've tested with sweetening, acid blend, etc. and am finding it incredibly difficult to mask the flavour.

The only things in common are a) water, and b) youth. Anyone have any insight for me? It was a very depressing session

 

[cintipam]

Hi rayway

As a confirmed strong black coffee drinker I still find tea bitter tasting. Is it possible tea contributed to the bitterness? Altho I know lots of other things are dried and prepared like teas and called teas. I make a tea from catnip and beebalm my hubby finds very relaxing.

I make lots of country wines and I don't think I have the same bitter in any of mine. Are you careful to remove as many seeds as possible as I've read seeds can be bitter.

Pam in cinti

 

[Julie]

It may be just young. Did you do an acid test on them?

 

[wineforfun]

What did you backsweeten them too? If it isn't at least around 1.008-1.010, this could be a possibility.

 

[salcoco]

I would suggest that the bitterness is from excessive tannin from your tea. Suggest doing a bench trial with gelatin on one of your wines to determine if the bitterness goes away.rereading your post I can not determine if you used tea in all of your wines. Normally a high acid content would be sour, however with acid blend bitterness can come form the blend of acids. Try cold stabilizing a small batch. the cold stabilizing will precipitate the acid and may also relieve the bitterness.

 

[GreginND]

If it is bitterness from tannins, you can fine with egg whites. That will take some of those bitter tannins out.

 

[BernardSmith]

What are the gravities vs the ABVs of the wines? Might the bitterness be a function of the heat of the alcohol if that is out of balance with the sweetness and acidity?

 

[the_rayway]

Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback! I realize I didn't give too many details, as I was hoping there would be a range of advice I could pull from. This has been SO helpful!

Teas: sorry if that was confusing, I was trying to say that the wines are different types. Tea was only used in one of the wines (a jasmine tea mead).
Seeds: not all of the wines had fruit, and even some of the fruits did not have excessive or large seeds (i.e. bananas in some).
Sweetness: they are are aging in a 'dry' (under 1.000) state. I like to age them that way for several months before doing bench trials on sweetening. I tasted each one totally dry, then gradually added sugar to up to and then past the point of where it tasted right for balance. If it tastes flat, I add a pinch of acid blend to see if that helps the balance. So that means I've tasted them all from the dry to too-sweet stage and the bitterness remains in all the way through the spectrum.
Acid: unfortunately, I only have a TA kit. And it's totally useless. I'll have a look at ph strips, which will at least help me get an idea. The wines were made with both high-acid, and low acid ingredients depending on the wine. (tart cherry - high, dandelion mead - low)
Alcohol: they range from 10%-14%, depending on type, so not overly alcoholic. There are also two ports which are fortified to 18 & 20% with commercial brandy. Bitterness in those two as well.
Tannins: this really has me wondering. Of course fruit has tannins, and in a few of the wines I've added oak chips to primary kind of as sacrificial tannins (but not to all of them). I wonder if I'm getting 'bad' tannins from seeds and skins and possibly the oak.

I'll give a go to fining with egg whites on a batch or two and see what happens. I'm hoping that will be the ticket. If not, I'll be back for more suggestions. I'll let everyone know how it goes.

 

[BernardSmith]

Way outside of my depth here, but if you add oak to the primary are you not in fact really pulling out far more tannins than if you were to add the oak for a week or two in the secondary?

 

[JohnT]

Another way to deal with tannins is through aeration. take a sample and swirl it in a glass for a while, then see if it has improved. if it has, just give your wines a good splash racking.

 

[Turock]

I'm not sure tannin is the problem as tannin is more of an astringent effect on the tongue than bitterness. To remove bitterness, I would suggest using Caseine.

However, I would also suggest more time in bulk aging as you said these are within the 1 year mark. Very often, bitterness will fade from a wine that has been aged longer.

You make alot of wine. It's time for you to buy a PH meter. Fruit wines,especially, benefit by having PH control on them pre-ferment. PH strips don't work as well, but if you buy some to get a handle on your current batches be sure to by "narrow range" test strips.

Are you sure you're describing the flavor accurately? Bitterness is far different than "too acidic" or "sour." Bitterness in fruit wines can come from aging the wine on a few seeds that escape you from the primary. You should always control the seeds from strawberry, raspberries, etc. so that they don't get into the secondary. Barring a seed issue, I'm not sure how these wines can end up bitter. We make a TON of fruit wines of all sorts and never have I encountered bitter flavors.

 

[the_rayway]

Hey @turock - it's definitely bitterness I taste. What do I do with the casein? And where would I find it? I've never heard of using it in wine. I'm just so stumped that ALL of them has this flavour this year.

And I agree about the ph meter, it's just a matter of saving up and finding a supplier here in Canada

 

[brottman]

The_rayway, I hope you find the answer and post back if and when you do. I too have 2 different batches that are young but I believe have the same bitterness to them that you describe. I also know the difference between sour and bitter and they are definitely bitter! I have no idea why

 

[Turock]

You add the casein during a siphon or pump over. The contact time is a minimum of 2 days and no more than 15 but you should do bench trials to find the best result. Casein Soluable is a Scott Labs product. You'd have to search for a supplier who carries it. There is a Scott Labs in Pickering Ontario--their number is 905-839-9463. Scott is very helpful to home winemakers and maybe they could send some to you. Be sure to ask about dosing for smaller amounts of wine.

In order to try to figure out how and why you have bitterness in all your wines would you mind telling me, from start to finish, how you go about your ferments? Maybe we can see a link to something you're doing that causes this.

 

[the_rayway]

Thanks Turock, I'll check out the Scott Labs site and see what they have for me!

Basic fermentation for my wines:
Primary:
- Fruit, bagged
- Water (city tap water)
- Sugar to desired S.G. (white sugar, not made into syrup)
- Acid, tannins, oak, bananas, raisins as needed/desired/per recipe
- K-meta (24 hours)
- Pectic enzyme (after k-meta, 12-24 hours before yeast pitch)
- yeast in a starter of warm water and a bit of sugar/wine juice (Lalvin yeasts only, let sit for 20-30 minutes)
- Pitch yeast.
- Once fermentation becomes active, I add nutrient (FermK), and stir as often as possible (1-2 times/day until ready for secondary).
- Nutrient again at 2/3 sugar break.
Secondary:
- Rack to secondary once SG is around the 1.020-1.010 mark. I usually have a fair amount of sediment in it as I do more of a pour through a funnel, leaving the fruit bags behind and other large solids. Some very heavy sediment left behind as well.
- Rack again in 1-2 weeks once S.G. has leveled off. Dose with K-meta.
- Let sit for 3 months or until a decent amount of sediment piles up (1/2"-1").
- Kmeta every 3 months after and rack as necessary. Wait until it settles out, then do bench trials for sweetening, extra oak/spices, acid, etc.

How am I looking?

 

[barbiek]

how long have you had the bitterness? I would think it would be the city water.. never could drink city water maybe try spring water with your next batch and see if that cures it how much tannin and raisons? Make sure the bananas are really ripe I'm curious to see what turock thinks it could be.

 

[cdevrard]

Hey Rayway

I have also had some bitterness in a few of my batches. Strawberry, dandelion and one blueberry. Time seemed to be the antidote. The longer it sat the less bitter they became. A few bottles made it to more than a year, but not many!

Let us know when you figure it out.

Best,

CE

 

[salcoco]

what do you use for a primary bucket? if not new but recycled bitterness could be from previous use.

Also I would rack after three days in secondary, this removes the wine from any heavy sediment which can give off odors and taste. rack again in three weeks after additional sediment. clarifier can be added at this time.

if city water does not have any off odors and drinkable should not affect wine. if desired can let it sit for about 12 hours to have any chlorine bubble off before using.

I would stay away from acid blend and follow this for acid additions, apple-malic, berry fruit-citirc and all other tartaric. this is protocol that commercial wineries must follow. I tried an apple with tartaric and malic in separate batches. the apple with tartaric was very dry toward bitterness.

These are some suggestions not necessarily the predominate solution to bitterness but should help.

 

[Turock]

I've been thinking about this issue on and off for a few days and here's some more thoughts for you. There are many different types of tannin. Some come from chestnut, some from grape,some from exotic wood, and if you over-use tannins they CAN create bitterness. I didn't think about this previously when you first started to discuss this problem--I guess I just presumed that you were using nominal dosing. So exactly HOW much tannin are you using in these wines????

If you think it's a tannin issue, you could do some bench trials with gelatin to remove some of the tannins and see if the bitterness goes away. If it does, then you know what the problem is. Also, some fining with a light dose of bentonite can remove bitterness too.

Everything else in your process seems correct. But here's another question--are you doing a hard pressing of the fruit or squeezing it really hard to get the remaining wine out of the bag? Excessive pressing can also cause bitterness.

If you want to try the gelatin and don't know how to use it let me know and I'll give you the instructions.

In the future, you might like trying a different fermentation tannin. For fruit wines, there is one called FT Blanc Soft. It's a good one for eliminating bitterness and gives a perception of sweetness without using sugar. You can also use it as an aging tannin in the secondary.

There are not very many things that cause bitterness in wine--so I guess the most glaring one IS the possibility that you are using too much tannin. When we use it, we use small amounts. Even the directions on the FT Blanc Soft only have you using 0.2 to 0.6 grams per gallon!!!!!!!!!!

 

[the_rayway]

Hey everyone! Wow, these are all great suggestions.

@Turock I squeeze the fruit during primary during stirring, but don't generally go overboard with it during secondary transfer (at least I don't think so!). When I use tannin as a powder add, I just add the tiniest bit (per recipes and estimates of other similar recipes for experimental wines). More often it is oak chips, and not crazy amounts. Thank you for all of the thoughtful input, I highly respect your opinions on this!

Before I do anything, I'm going to give it another week. Perhaps my tasters hadn't recovered from strep throat, and perhaps it was my new, strange toothpaste, but like some others have commented - it seems weird that they are all experiencing the same issue. So later this week or early next week I'm going to give another taste. I'm over the strep, and I've changed back to the old toothpaste and will see if that makes a difference too. If not? On to suitable efforts.

Also, I'll see if I can source FT Blanc Soft in Canada. It just seems like the better way to go with tannins (not every recipe should use the same tannins!).

Ok folks...TBC on all of this. Thank you all again for the suggestions, questions, and help. What a great community we have here!!!