Any hope of salvaging fruit wines forgotten about during aging?

[Nate R]

Hi all,
I made a couple different wines to try it out in 2017. In 2018 I picked a bunch of wild fruit to try more. I started several batches of different things. 5 gallons of blackberry, 1 gallon of black rasberry, and 1 that I think is choke cherry. They were all started in late 2018, racked a couple times into early 2019, and then pretty much have been sitting in my basement since. Some...life things happened, and they were put on the back burner for a while and basically forgotten about for a time.

Now I'm looking at them again, and wondering if there's any hope of salvaging them? In all, the airlocks evaporated their trap water out entirely. The good news is they were out of most light, and temps should have been between 45 and 75 degrees, usually around low 60s. But there's...mold or some light chunks floating at the top, some seem to have a fair bit of sediment......

Not sure what the best approach is? Dump it all? Rack the middle into a clean container, leaving the bottom and the top? If I did so, how long should I leave it sit again before doing something else? What would you do with this situation?

Thanks for your thoughts!

-Nate R

 

[Jovimaple]

Welcome to WMT! This sounds like something @Rice_Guy would know.

 

[ChuckD]

Three years unprotected is a long time. However, If the carboys are full the surface area of wine exposed is small. You may still have a lot of oxidation… jor vinegar. I would remove the mold then draw some wine out and taste it.

 

[Hazelemere]

throw it out

Chocolate Haagen Daaz with walnuts coated on shit is still shit. What you have is dreck. Start over.

 

[ChuckD]

@Hazelemere is probably right. If there is enough alcohol, or if it’s turned to vinegar then Tasting it won’t kill you… probably

 

[sour_grapes]

I think that @Hazelemere 's paraphrasing of Schopenhauer's Law of Entropy is a bit severe. I would trust your nose, and take a sip if it seems okay. Probably will be a bit oxidized, i.e., sherry-like taste.

And welcome to WMT! And you are local to me. Do you know about the WVA? Wisconsin Vintners Association

 

[Rice_Guy]

- wine is a preservative system, the mold note I don’t like but a mycelia mat of aerobic bacteria probably would mean vinegar. If I look at some my mom ignored, she made some thirty year old peach vinegar and then used it in salad dressing. ,,,,, my first test is smell and second would be taste it and third would be to ask at Wisconsin Vinters in January.
- three years is a long time, your normal chemical progression is to make acetaldehyde (oxidized ethanol) and if the time progresses then that further oxidizes into Sherry. Acetaldehyde is detectable above 100ppm and if the concentration significantly goes up I describe it as a burn in the back of the throat swallowing. Sherry flavor is more nutty and to me more pleasing. A lab test for acetaldehyde is to treat it with metabisulphite. The resulting sulphite is flavorless. ,,,, It would be unusual not to have some acetaldehyde over a year of air exposure. It is not toxic in normal quantities. If you know anyone using Antabuse it is the molecular pathway that drug blocks.
- if you don’t like the smell or taste toss it, foods are supposed to be hedonic.

Welcome to Wine Making Talk

 

[BigDaveK]

Welcome to WMT!

Alcohol, time, and temperature can certainly do interesting things. Not an experiment I would consider but I'm definitely curious. Please report back with smell and possibly taste impressions.

 

[winemaker81]

Not sure what the best approach is? Dump it all? Rack the middle into a clean container, leaving the bottom and the top? If I did so, how long should I leave it sit again before doing something else? What would you do with this situation?

rack from the middle, leaving the top-n-bottom. I don't have a lot of confidence that you'll have a positive result, but there's no downside to trying.

When checking wine, go with sight - smell - taste, in that order. If a check fails, stop -- you're done. OR much braver than I am!

After 3 years, the wine in the middle should be clear -- if it's not, that's a very bad sign. If you get as far as racking, sniff the receiving bucket as racking should release whatever aroma there is.

 

[winemaker81]

@Nate R, Regardless of outcome, I suggest rinsing all equipment well, and scrubbing the jugs with a brush, even if they look good. I have a habit of soaking my carboys in Oxyclean and hot water for an hour, then racking the liquid out to help ensure the inside of my tubing is clean as well. I run hot water through the tubing to remove residue, e.g., rinse a carboy, fill with hot water, and rack it out.

 

[Hazelemere]

I think that @Hazelemere 's paraphrasing of Schopenhauer's Law of Entropy is a bit severe. I would trust your nose, and take a sip if it seems okay. Probably will be a bit oxidized, i.e., sherry-like taste.

And welcome to WMT! And you are local to me. Do you know about the WVA? Wisconsin Vintners Association

Schopenauer reference is really funny

 

[sour_grapes]

Schopenauer reference is really funny

Usually, the phrasing of the quote is a bit longer, and more euphonius*:
"If you add a teaspoon of fine wine to a barrel of sewage, it's sewage. If you add a teaspoon of sewage to a barrel of fine wine, it's sewage."


*I suppose the long version uses a combination of chiasmus and antistrophe to good effect.

 

[vinny]

Usually, the phrasing of the quote is a bit longer, and more euphonius*:
"If you add a teaspoon of fine wine to a barrel of sewage, it's sewage. If you add a teaspoon of sewage to a barrel of fine wine, it's sewage."


*I suppose the long version uses a combination of chiasmus and antistrophe to good effect.

I feel the vulgarity of the revised version was also intended for 'good effect'

 

[Hazelemere]

Schopenauer reference is really funny

Maybe I was too hard but my experience over 55 years of winemaking with a lot of crap in the early years tells me the following:

1. Give up all bias on "Its my wine so whatever it is "I like it." Ego winemaking is total nonsense. I've seen winemaking champions serve up total dreck e.g. oxidized sauvignon blanc and pontificate on how good it was in a room full of really good winemakers at a special Italian lunch where we all brought our best Sauvignon Blanc. His was from hell. Every other one was fine.

A former friend of mine brought 4 bottles of his u-brew red to a reunion. They were 4, 3, 2 and 1 year old respectively. He proudly opened up his 4 year old red kit wine. It was oxidized. I said how do you like it. He says yes I do. I said it is oxidized and he responds I like it. Then we did the 3 year old which was still oxidized but better than the 4 year old. Then we did the 2 year old which was ok not great and finally the 1 year old which was decent. His ego was totally attached to "his" wines which he never made and only corked and proudly aged to their ultimate death.

2. Don't force anyone to drink your ego trip - I was a winemaker's banquet where this goof ball shows up with a gallon of 2nd run red from grapes i.e. seed tannin city, the kind of wine that can actually give you a headache. He pours everyone at the table a full glass without asking if you'd like any and expected everyone to drink it. I got up and poured it into a planter.

I still make crap but rarely e.g. my Sheridan Syrah which I've slowly managed to turn into something drinkable.

My son-in-law threw pitted unskinned apricots into a white wine to soak which destroyed it from the apricot skin flavour. The same thing happens with yellow plums and peaches.

So for me I try to fix whatever is out of whack and if I can't I chuck it with no remorse and try to learn whatever went wrong e.g. storing wine in PVC containers vs polyethylene.

 

[vinny]

Maybe I was too hard but my experience over 55 years of winemaking with a lot of crap in the early years tells me the following:

Half the time we are just here playing games with our words. I don't think anyone was offended.

Also, I think @sour_grapes was just the one having the most fun. How often do you get to work chiasmus and antistrophe into a wine forum conversation. You have to really look for those opportunities.

 

[hounddawg]

First, Welcome to WMT,,,,,
second just out of curiosity,
what type air lock do you use, a 3 piece evaporates quickly.
where as a double bubble lasts way longer, before it evaporates, way, way longer,,,,
Dawg

 

[Nate R]

what type air lock do you use, a 3 piece evaporates quickly.
where as a double bubble lasts way longer, before it evaporates, way, way longer,,,,

There were all double bubbles...which was a point I was going to make...we know when I last racked them, but we don't know how long they were exposed to air, as I'm not sure when they evaporated.

Thanks!

 

[Nate R]

I appreciate the advice! I tried to make sure I took RiceGuy's into account for sure!


This was what was in one of the gallon jugs, probably the most surface area of any of them.

The top of the 5 gallon:

I had carboys with:
5 gal of blackberry
1 gal of blackberry (Same batch as the 5, just excess)
1 gal of "black cherry" (Later realized this might be mixed with something else)
1 gal of black raspberry
1 gal of chokecherry (also likely mixed with chokeberry and/or black cherry)


The 5 gal carboy while full, definitely tasted vinegary. Smell was actually not bad at all though. But sadly, had to toss this.
The Black Cherry was so bitter (as it had been previously, was hoping aging would help) that I tossed it. Not sure it had any real issue otherwise, but the strong, medicinal black cherry intensity masks a lot.
The black raspberry wasn't great, but not sure what the off flavor is...it didn't strike me as vinegar.
The 1 gallon of blackberry wasn't bad, but just....weak. But I suspect that whole batch of blackberry was that way.....not enough berry flavor.
The 1 gallon of choke cherry I did not yet try.


So, 6 gallons down the drain so far for sure. I'll try the chokecherry soon and see how that is.

-Nate

 

[hounddawg]

I'd do a bench test, back sweeten then taste',,, after all what do you really have to lose,,,,
Dawg

 

[Rice_Guy]

Cherry: with tart pie cherry I see off flavors in the bottle with time, bitter, yes, A guess on my part is that this is a relative of wild choke cherry and as molecules grow (polyphenols) it develops off notes and with a few years molecules get big enough that off notes drop out.

Black raspberry: mine develops astringent (drying the mouth tissues). I haven’t done long term aging but the word in the vinters club is that a polyphenol forms complexes that become large enough to taste, which continue to grow and then become tasteless.

Choke cherry: bitter notes early and the word in the vinters is much better at ten years.