Aging in Carboy vs bottling

[MalvinaScordaad]

Yes this is what is important
Malvina

 

[BobF]

Keep in mind Bob that I still rack several times after fermentation on which the wine is being tested and S02 added. I'm just not a believer in leaving my wine in a carboy for a year like others if not necessary. I know a lot of people do age for very long periods in carboys.

I wasn't disagreeing with what you posted, Dan. I was adding to it.

Circumstances and techniques vary greatly between all of us, so it's hard to nail down exact numbers and timelines that will work for everybody.

Must/wine composition, vinification environment, actual vs nominal k-meta strength.

Another thing that folks need to keep in mind is that all of the baseline assumptions and techniques we use were established from years of GRAPE winemaking. Fruit musts are vastly different chemically from grape musts, so we need to add/reduce, tweak, fiddle, fudge when working with non-grape fruit.

 

[seth8530]

Temperature changes age wine quicker. Better aging as you say is true but not faster.
http://www.preiserkey.com/node/1705

No wise cracks fellas
Malvina

Thanks for posting a link. I will give that a read.. BTW was not debating about carboy vs bottle aging in the time aspect.

 

[BobF]

Not really. Free So2 is a result of a certain amount of Kmeta added at a certain pH. If the ph doesn't change and no o2 is introduced the Free So2 does not change by a large degree. However a somewhat larger initial dose can be productive. The idea that the free SO2 is going to disappear in a carboy unopened over time is not true.

Sorry, Mal. What you've posted here is misleading, at least for initial/early additions. Free SO2 is, by definition, UNBOUND SO2. Not to pick nits, but pH does not effect how much of an SO2 addition is free SO2 - pH tells us how much free SO2 will be *molecular* free SO2. I'm not trying to pick flysh*t out of pepper here. There are four distinct SO2 measures that are important in day-to-day use; Total, Bound, Free and Molecular.

As SO2 becomes bound over time, there is less free SO2 to contribute to *molecular*. Oxygen is NOT the only thing in wine that SO2 binds with.

This is obviously more of a factor in the earliest SO2 additions. In fact, this is the reason that "a somewhat larger initial dose can be productive."

In practical terms, and in most cases, by the time the second or third SO2 addition has been made, then what you posted above is true.

For anybody interested in digging in to this, the single best SO2 paper I've found is at http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/SO2/SO2.htm

 

[BobF]

Temperature changes age wine quicker. Better aging as you say is true but not faster.
http://www.preiserkey.com/node/1705

No wise cracks fellas
Malvina

I wonder how much empty Salamanzars go for?

 

[thesnow]

I did my wine test, Red Cabernet Sauvignon
Results: PH 3.8 straight from cold room, did test again 15 mins later PH 3.76
Hmmm... PH is kind of High , For PH, what do I do now ?
TA is 5.6 g/L
The free SO2 is 40 ppm.
I was planning to filter into another carboy then bottle, but I'm on hold now, not sure what do..

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

I did my wine test, Red Cabernet Sauvignon
Results: PH 3.8 straight from cold room, did test again 15 mins later PH 3.76
Hmmm... PH is kind of High , For PH, what do I do now ?
The free SO2 is 40 ppm.
I was planning to filter into another carboy then bottle, but I'm on hold now, not sure what do..

Talk about getting lost in the weeds Bob LOL I try to keep it practical.

OK So Snow here has a Ph of 3.76 and he thinks he has a problem. Not sure why. Did you read a book that told you PH had to be 3.6 or the wine would spoil? Many do. In the real world many wines have a ph of 3.8 but now as a winemaker you have to exercise some decision making. Simply add an additional 40 ppm or First how does the wine taste? Is it flabby? Can it handle a little more acid? Next question since we know the PH what is the TA. If the TA is low and you think the wine can handle some acid addition to TASTE then you can add some tartaric acid and the result will be a lowering of the ph which in turn will let you use less SO2 to protect the wine. So Taste the wine, Get a TA reading, do a bench test with an additional amount of tartaric TASTE ( allow 24 hours for the tartaric to integrate) and then measure ph again. Then let us know what you have decided to do.
Malvina

 

[thesnow]

TA is 5.6 g/l

 

[BobF]

Hehe ... Weeds are everywhere! OTOH, making a single, first addition of SO2 at 40ppm and leaving it for a year is asking for problems. A spontaneous MLF is likely and mixed with sorbate would be the end of the wine.

But, hey - it was easy!!

 

[thesnow]

wine tastes oaky, added oak six months ago.. would like to stir but don't want to make sediments come up. would prefer filtering the wine first then stir to have a good taste

 

[thesnow]

BobF.. this is not really funny..

 

[BobF]

Snow - See my PM. I feel your pain. Hang in there.

 

[thesnow]

Snow - See my PM. I feel your pain. Hang in there.

BobF for adjustments what do you recommend?

Red Cabernet Sauvignon
Results: PH 3.8 straight from cold room, did test again 15 mins later PH 3.76
TA is 5.6 g/L
The free SO2 is 40 ppm.
I was planning to filter into another carboy then bottle, but I'm on hold now, not sure what do..

 

[BobF]

I prefer .8 molecular for reds and whites. Some prefer to use .5 for reds.
You already have 40ppm, which is what is needed at your wines pH for .5 (close enough).

If you want to go with .8, you need to add 30ppm free SO2 for a total of 70.
(ppm = mg/L)

Using FermCalc (http://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/FermCalcJS.html)
to calculate, your addition needs to be 1.2g for 23L.

As Mal stated above, there is 'room' for an acid addition IF your taste tells you that you want more. You said it tastes fine ...

You could do some trials to see if you would prefer to make an acid addition. Making an acid addition will extend your timeline for bottling, but you won't need any more SO2 right now because an acid addition would lower your pH. With a lower pH, the free SO2 requirement is lower to get the target molecular level.

Here is a link to a good paper on SO2 management.
http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/so2.pdf

I hope I haven't muddied this up for you. If you have any more questions, please post them or PM me.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Why Pm I think a lot of readers might be interested. .56 ta for a Cab. Taste rules but .65 would not at all be out of line.
Malvina

This wine didn't go through MLF? That changes the entire picture. Lysozyme immediately.

 

[thesnow]

I'm new at this..
If i go for an acid addition, how much should I add?
never done this before, never bought acid addition what am I looking for at local wine store.

 

[thesnow]

I went out , and got a acid blend.. I'm trying to use the FermCalc JS calculator, seems the only option is three kinds of acids to pick from?? what does mEq/L mean?
Is my calculation OK should I go the half the amount .30 gram

 

[BobF]

What you need is tartaric acid.
Are you measuring with a gram scale or teaspoons?

To give you an idea, you would add 20.7g of tartaric to increase the TA of 23L from .56% to .65%

I wouldn't make this jump without testing.

If you have a gram scale I can post a quick/dirty procedure for you to make adjustments to a few samples to help you decide if you want to add acidity and how much.

Your numbers are not beyond reason at this point, so it's really what taste you prefer.

If you haven't put this through MLF, you can either add Lysozyme as Mal suggested, or make sure you keep your free SO2 above 30ppm - which you already have for now.

 

[BobF]

For a Cab, I wouldn't use acid blend. Blend has tartaric, citric and malic acids. I would not want to add malic ...

I have no idea what those units are. Pick %Tartaric for the units, which is what your TA tests are.

I wouldn't add anything without trying a sample to make absolutely certain you like the wine with the addition. It's easy to add, but not so easy to away if you overshoot with the addition.

 

[BobF]

For a trial, mix 5g tartaric acid in 100ml distilled water. This is a 5% solution.

Measure 100ml of your wine.

Each ml of the solution you add to your wine sample is the same as making a .5g/L, or .05% addition. 2ml = 1g/L or .1%

So, 2ml in sample will be like making a full addition to your carboy bringing the TA from 5.6 to 6.6.

Somebody please double check my math