Adding CO2

[geronajulian4]

How do you add CO2 to the finish product so that you get the fizz when you open the bottle.

 

[Jim Welch]

You can naturally ferment by adding a carefully measured amount of sugar then bottle, in a bottle that can take the pressure so NOT a regular corked wine bottle. If you go this route I don't believe you can add sorbate.

Another option is to keg the wine and using compressed CO2 you force carbonate the wine.

I do not do this with wine but being a long time brewer have done each method many times with beer. In my experience the easiest is force carbonation BUT it requires a fairly significant investment in kegging equipment.

 

[geronajulian4]

Thanks,
So how much pressure is needed for ideal CO2 content.

You can naturally ferment by adding a carefully measured amount of sugar then bottle, in a bottle that can take the pressure so NOT a regular corked wine bottle. If you go this route I don't believe you can add sorbate.

Another option is to keg the wine and using compressed CO2 you force carbonate the wine.

I do not do this with wine but being a long time brewer have done each method many times with beer. In my experience the easiest is force carbonation BUT it requires a fairly significant investment in kegging equipment.y

 

[geronajulian4]

Im good at improvising , designing ,fabricating and normally makes my own equipments the thing that I cant imagine is how do I force CO2 in bottles and prevent it from escaping within the fraction of a second until I am able to secure the cap.

 

[winemaker81]

So how much pressure is needed for ideal CO2 content.

The typical amount of sugar is 1/3 to 3/4 cup sugar in 5 US gallons / 19 liters. Stir really well, then bottle.

@Jim Welch is absolutely right, don't use bottles not intended for pressure. Bottles are either rated for pressure or unrated -- unrated bottles are not safe at any pressure. If the bottle has a weak spot, it can explode.

Use pop-top beer bottles (not screw-off), champagne bottles, or (if you can find 'em) glass soda/pop bottles. For this you'll need a crown capper, and note that there are 2 common sizes for crown caps, the USA and Europe typically use different sizes.

 

[Rice_Guy]

How do you add CO2 to the finish product so that you get the fizz when you open the bottle.

* fizz means that the partial pressure of the gas is significantly greater than one atmosphere pressure. One can get a fair level of fizz at 1.5 atmosphere. The fizz is related to product temperature, a cold beverage has higher solubility for CO2 than a room temp or warm beverage.
*sodas are made by setting a CO2 pressure line feeding the mixer.
* in the food lab carbonated beverage was made by placing liquid in a corney keg, pressurizing to target and then shaking to mix the gas in. You can have significant room temp fizz if you simply carbonate a cold liquid. Then can it. ,,, yes if you carbonate cold it is still there when you seal the package. What serving temperature were you targeting? That determines how much fizz.
* CO2 can be from any source, as recovering gas off beer to pressurize the canning line. Traditional production would be adding sugar for a secondary fermentation.

 

[Jim Welch]

If you are looking for the same “fizz” that a commercial sparkling wine has keep in mind that they have more than 1.5 atmospheres, sparkling wines are typically 4-6 atmospheres!

 

[geronajulian4]

The typical amount of sugar is 1/3 to 3/4 cup sugar in 5 US gallons / 19 liters. Stir really well, then bottle.

@Jim Welch is absolutely right, don't use bottles not intended for pressure. Bottles are either rated for pressure or unrated -- unrated bottles are not safe at any pressure. If the bottle has a weak spot, it can explode.

Use pop-top beer bottles (not screw-off), champagne bottles, or (if you can find 'em) glass soda/pop bottles. For this you'll need a crown capper, and note that there are 2 common sizes for crown caps, the USA and Europe typically use different sizes.

Than

The typical amount of sugar is 1/3 to 3/4 cup sugar in 5 US gallons / 19 liters. Stir really well, then bottle.

@Jim Welch is absolutely right, don't use bottles not intended for pressure. Bottles are either rated for pressure or unrated -- unrated bottles are not safe at any pressure. If the bottle has a weak spot, it can explode.

Use pop-top beer bottles (not screw-off), champagne bottles, or (if you can find 'em) glass soda/pop bottles. For this you'll need a crown capper, and note that there are 2 common sizes for crown caps, the USA and Europe typically different sizes.

The typical amount of sugar is 1/3 to 3/4 cup sugar in 5 US gallons / 19 liters. Stir really well, then bottle.

@Jim Welch is absolutely right, don't use bottles not intended for pressure. Bottles are either rated for pressure or unrated -- unrated bottles are not safe at any pressure. If the bottle has a weak spot, it can explode.

Use pop-top beer bottles (not screw-off), champagne bottles, or (if you can find 'em) glass soda/pop bottles. For this you'll need a crown capper, and note that there are 2 common sizes for crown caps, the USA and Europe typically use different sizes.

Thank you ,
Im presuming that the 1/3 to 3/4 cup sugar is for secondary ferment.

 

[geronajulian4]

If you are looking for the same “fizz” that a commercial sparkling wine has keep in mind that they have more than 1.5 atmospheres, sparkling wines are typically 4-6 atmospheres!

Thank you, I have read that typical wine bottles can handle up to 15 atm. Is that correct?

 

[geronajulian4]

* fizz means that the partial pressure of the gas is significantly greater than one atmosphere pressure. One can get a fair level of fizz at 1.5 atmosphere. The fizz is related to product temperature, a cold beverage has higher solubility for CO2 than a room temp or warm beverage.
*sodas are made by setting a CO2 pressure line feeding the mixer.
* in the food lab carbonated beverage was made by placing liquid in a corney keg, pressurizing to target and then shaking to mix the gas in. You can have significant room temp fizz if you simply carbonate a cold liquid. Then can it. ,,, yes if you carbonate cold it is still there when you seal the package. What serving temperature were you targeting? That determines how much fizz.
* CO2 can be from any source, as recovering gas off beer to pressurize the canning line. Traditional production would be adding sugar for a secondary fermentation.

Thank you,, cooling makes sense. I wonder if there is values table for the amount of dissolve CO2 to temperature. Say if I cool it to near zero before pouring to bottles , how much CO2 or pressure do I get when it gets to room temp of around 25C.

 

[Jim Welch]

@geronajulian4 I believe the typical champagne bottle can hold 15 atm,. not a regular wine bottle.
Yes there is a table that home brewers use that shows the pressure/temp for certain carbonation levels, google "force carbonation table", you'll find numerous links to brewing sites with this info.
One thing I should mention about bottle conditioning, feeding more sugar to the living yeasties in your wine WILL result in a layer of yeast sediment in your bottles.

 

[ibglowin]

I see your in the Philippines. If you want something easy you can also purchase a Sodastream and just carb a bottle at a time as needed.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

Thank you, I have read that typical wine bottles can handle up to 15 atm. Is that correct?

No! Champagne bottles are rated to that sort of pressure, but a typical wine bottle is not. Please don't put sparkling wine in a regular wine bottle, it's very dangerous.

Use pop-top beer bottles (not screw-off), champagne bottles, or (if you can find 'em) glass soda/pop bottles. For this you'll need a crown capper, and note that there are 2 common sizes for crown caps, the USA and Europe typically use different sizes.

I would be hesitant to use beer bottles or glass soda bottles unless you're planning on very low levels of carbonation. PET plastic bottles may be a suitable alternative if you can't get pressure-rated champagne bottles.

The typical amount of sugar is 1/3 to 3/4 cup sugar in 5 US gallons / 19 liters. Stir really well, then bottle.

As a general rule, 4g/L table sugar (sucrose) in secondary fermentation yields a pressure of ~15psi/1bar/1atm though it varies a bit depending on % alcohol. Assuming 200g/cup, 3/4 cup in 5 US gal/19L will give you 7.9g/L, or almost 2 atm. (This also assumes that your primary ferment went to completion so there is no residual sugar)..

You can find a useful introduction to carbonating here, including different methods and the effect of temperature on dissolved CO2.

 

[geronajulian4]

Thank you, looks like PET bottles is suitable for

No! Champagne bottles are rated to that sort of pressure, but a typical wine bottle is not. Please don't put sparkling wine in a regular wine bottle, it's very dangerous.


I would be hesitant to use beer bottles or glass soda bottles unless you're planning on very low levels of carbonation. PET plastic bottles may be a suitable alternative if you can't get pressure-rated champagne bottles.


As a general rule, 4g/L table sugar (sucrose) in secondary fermentation yields a pressure of ~15psi/1bar/1atm though it varies a bit depending on % alcohol. Assuming 200g/cup, 3/4 cup in 5 US gal/19L will give you 7.9g/L, or almost 2 atm. (This also assumes that your primary ferment went to completion so there is no residual sugar)..

You can find a useful introduction to carbonating here, including different methods and the effect of temperature on dissolved CO2.

Thank you,
Looks like PET bottles is suitable for noobs like me.
Seems adding pressurize CO2 is more reliable than adding sugar on secondary.

 

[geronajulian4]

Thanks for the input

 

[geronajulian4]

Th

I see your in the Philippines. If you want something easy you can also purchase a Sodastream and just carb a bottle at a time as needed.

Thanks, I will look into soda stream

 

[winemaker81]

Im presuming that the 1/3 to 3/4 cup sugar is for secondary ferment.

Yes

I would be hesitant to use beer bottles or glass soda bottles unless you're planning on very low levels of carbonation. PET plastic bottles may be a suitable alternative if you can't get pressure-rated champagne bottles.

I've been making beer for long time, bottling in beer bottles. The amount of sugar I specified above (max 3/4 cup in 19 liters) is safe -- it's what all the beer books state.

However, I haven't looked at numbers for Champagne, and when I've tried sparkling wines I used the same amount as for beer. If the amount for sparkling wine is greater, I accept your statement that beer bottles may be a problem. Can you post a reference?

 

[BarrelMonkey]

I've been making beer for long time, bottling in beer bottles. The amount of sugar I specified above (max 3/4 cup in 19 liters) is safe -- it's what all the beer books state.

Thanks for clarifying. As noted above, that level of sugar will give you a little under 2 atm pressure which is a lot less than champagne. I'm sure it will be safe for beer bottles given your experience and the guidance of beer brewing books.

However, I haven't looked at numbers for Champagne, and when I've tried sparkling wines I used the same amount as for beer. If the amount for sparkling wine is greater, I accept your statement that beer bottles may be a problem. Can you post a reference?

Can I ever! I spent way too much time researching this when I was planning my 2022 sparkling wine.

From the reference I posted above (FSHN20-34/FS379: A Guide to Carbonating Beverages at Small Scale; in round numbers, 1 volume CO2 at room temp ≈1 bar ≈1 atm):

"The minimum carbonation level for people to detect is ~0.6 volumes of CO2 (McMahon, Culver, and Ross 2017). Any value lower has a flat perception and is considered noncarbonated. The absolute maximum carbonation level recommended is 8 volumes of CO2. Any higher value will lead to an unappealing bite and excessive burn to the tongue and throat. Also, at higher concentrations of CO2, the bottle becomes a safety hazard due to excessive pressure. For reference, most soft drinks, such as tonic water, are carbonated to 3–3.5 volumes of CO2. To be classified as sparkling wine, the carbonation level must reach a level greater than 2 volumes of CO2 (Bugher 2020). Traditional champagne is carbonated to approximately 4.6 volumes of CO2 but can be found as high as 6 volumes of CO2 (Moriaux et al. 2018). In the beer industry, most craft and lager-style beers are carbonated to 2.4–2.6 volumes of CO2, but this depends on the style. For example, German wheat beer has one of the highest beer carbonation levels at ~5 volumes of CO2 (Colby 2018). In comparison, British ales have some of the lowest beer carbonation levels at 1.5–2.2 volumes of CO2 (Lauriston n.d.)."

This (pdf) is a technical guide to sparkling wine production; the bottom of page 5 contains the table from which I derive the '4g/L gives 1 bar/1 atm/15psi' rule of thumb. Note that this is technically only true for 10% ABV; it varies a bit above and below that level.

Scott Labs (pdf) also has a good sparkling wine handbook, as does Enartis (pdf). Their tirage and bottling protocols are 'the same but different' - ie common themes but different in some specifics.

Jack Keller, perhaps better known for country wines, also has a good guide to making sparkling (pdf). From his guide:

"For a finished sparkling wine with 4 atmospheres of CO2 (about 58 pounds of pressure per square inch), 16.8 grams of sugar per liter are added, or 63.6 grams per U.S. gallon (318 grams per 5-gallon batch). In Champagne, the standard is 6 atmospheres of CO2 (about 88 pounds of pressure per square inch). This requires that 25.2 grams of sugar per liter be added, or 95.4 grams per U.S. gallon (477 grams per 5-gallon batch)."

And as a personal anecdote, we use the champagne level of addition at the winery where I work (25.2g/L, assuming the base wine is bone dry). For my recent home sparkling experiment, I backed off a bit from this and used 21g/L - still enough for significant pressure and bubbles. I may have been a bit overambitious here since a few of the bottles leaked, but I think the majority are OK and I'm almost 4 weeks in from bottling.

 

[winemaker81]

Thanks for clarifying. As noted above, that level of sugar will give you a little under 2 atm pressure which is a lot less than champagne. I'm sure it will be safe for beer bottles given your experience and the guidance of beer brewing books.

Jim said commercial sparkling is 4 to 6 atm, so it sounds like I'm using roughly 1/2 to 1/3 the amount I should be using. This explains why my attempts at sparkling wine were not all that impressive. Having made beer for so long, I figured wine would need the same amount. [Yes, I'm one to explain to beer makers that they need to forget everything they know when they start winemaking! ]

I found a reference that said beer bottles can handle up to 3 atm, so making sparkling wine in them with commercial pressure is definitely a no-no. Some beers, apparently including German wheat beers, are carbonated at a higher level, but guessing which beer bottle can handle the pressure is the entrance fee to a Darwin Award competition. As with War Games, the only way to win is to not play the game.

I'm REALLY happy you mentioned this, as it's critically important!

Scott Labs (pdf) also has a good sparkling wine handbook, as does Enartis (pdf). Their tirage and bottling protocols are 'the same but different' - ie common themes but different in some specifics.

Jack Keller, perhaps better known for country wines, also has a good guide to making sparkling (pdf). From his guide:

I just added 4 more books to my library. Thanks!

 

[Jim Welch]

I monitor running equipment at work with nothing to do if everything is running ok, I'd written a lengthy response earlier and before posting the equipment went sideways and I had to jump! By the time I looked again Barrelmonkey had stated pretty much everything I'd written about sparkling wine/champagne carbonation so I deleted it.
To recap that which hasn't been broached yet (I think!). While I couldn't find a university based study, it seems the rather long term general consensus in the brewing world is that commercial non returnable bottles (NBR) beer bottles are safe to about 3 atmospheres. This is from empirical evidence (i.e. actual experience bottling many batches of beer) in that many home brewers use NBR bottles and carbonate to this level even though most commercial beers are around 2.5 atmospheres. I myself always aimed for 2.4 atmospheres, that's what worked best for me for a long time.
Many report that at 3 or above they don't get bombs but they do get gushers, others state they have no such problem. this may have to do with the style of beer, where lighter bodied beers appear to be more likely to gush. Many belgian beers are relatively highly carbonated and the Belgian beers generally don't do the whole "Lite" thing.
Which brings me to another subject, bottles from Europe, especially Germany and Belgium, are heavier bottles than our north american bottles. I don't mean NBR bottles meant for import here but the bottles used there. I've bought cases of empty flip top 0.5L German bottles from USAF airmen stationed at the Dover AFB and they are pretty heavy bottles. Also Duvel is bottled at a bit over 4 atmospheres and I've never seen one gush much less explode and this beer I do not drink ice cold.
This may be a non sequitur but when I mention the different bottles the german brewers seem to export in it occurs to me...If you go to Germany and ask the average German about St Pauli Girl beer, they'll look at you kind of strange. It turns out there is no such beer in Germany according to every German I've talked to. I've been told that as a matter of fact a "St Pauli girl" must be a hooker in the St Pauli district of the port city of Hamburg. So it seems some marketing department made that beer brand out of whole cloth for us!