A Couple Beginner Questions

[BernardSmith]

What's the current specific gravity? What was it three days ago? And have you tasted the wine? You say that nothing is happening. You might be right but generally speaking a great deal is happening that is not visible to you. For one thing yeast are incredibly house-proud and they clean up many of the compounds they produce as they ferment sugars that may adversely affect the flavor of a wine. And for another, if you are asking whether it is all still good, one really good way to check on that is to taste your wine. Of course, it will still be very "green" but you can taste off flavors and other problems and tasting wines from the moment you pitch the yeast to the moment you bottle is a very powerful way to learn more about the wine making process. You are not going to be drinking a glass of the wine for pleasure but you might want to taste a sip or two to check on its sweetness, its acidity, the tannins in it, whether the wine has flavors and aromas that indicate stressed yeast or other bacterial problems.

 

[justsipn]

What's the current specific gravity? What was it three days ago? And have you tasted the wine? You say that nothing is happening. You might be right but generally speaking a great deal is happening that is not visible to you. For one thing yeast are incredibly house-proud and they clean up many of the compounds they produce as they ferment sugars that may adversely affect the flavor of a wine. And for another, if you are asking whether it is all still good, one really good way to check on that is to taste your wine. Of course, it will still be very "green" but you can taste off flavors and other problems and tasting wines from the moment you pitch the yeast to the moment you bottle is a very powerful way to learn more about the wine making process. You are not going to be drinking a glass of the wine for pleasure but you might want to taste a sip or two to check on its sweetness, its acidity, the tannins in it, whether the wine has flavors and aromas that indicate stressed yeast or other bacterial problems.

When I say "nothing is happening", I strictly mean visually as far as bubbling....etc. The only visual change is the settling in the carboy. When I racked it on the 29th, the SG was .998. I didn't check it over the weekend. I only had it open long enough to smell it. Didn't want to let too much oxygen in. When I tasted it on the 29th, it had two distinct flavors. One was a very nice sweet wine flavor. The other was a more bitter acidic flavor. I wasn't going to taste it again till the 20th when I rack it again. I also received my PH meter so, I will be measuring the PH when I rack it also.

 

[Rice_Guy]

You are OK, time is a key ingredient. Also wine is very forgiving.
i try to rack three times max and thumb my noise at the rules that you have to rack an such and such day, one spin off of that is anytime I open I plan on adding meta.

oxygen is your enemy!

 

[justsipn]

You are OK, time is a key ingredient.
i try to rack three times max and thumb my noise at the rules, one spin off of that is anytime I open I plan on adding meta.

oxygen is your enemy!

Yep, I'm following your guidelines from before. Rack next week and add Meta. Probably won't then do anything till I bottle it.

Thanks a bunch.

 

[DizzyIzzy]

Two quick thoughts. It is very unlikely that you will get a spontaneous MLF happening as this is a bacterial process and not a true fermentation. The bacteria are bacteria that love malic acid and when they do their thing they convert the malic to lactic acid (malic being a far more "sharp" acid than lactic).
These bacteria in the presence of sorbate produce an aroma that is similar to geraniums and this aroma most people find very unpleasant. Bottom line is that if you are planning for MLF you want to avoid stabilizing your wine with sorbates.

https://winemakermag.com/wine-wizard/1122-potassium-sorbate-post-mlf

I thought I had the process down until reading these messages on MLF. Question: Doesn't MLF happen naturally during the secondary fermentation? Does one really have to add a strain of ML? I am confused!

 

[DizzyIzzy]

You are OK, time is a key ingredient. Also wine is very forgiving.
i try to rack three times max and thumb my noise at the rules that you have to rack an such and such day, one spin off of that is anytime I open I plan on adding meta.

oxygen is your enemy!

How much meta do you add when opening the fermenter?

 

[Johnd]

I thought I had the process down until reading these messages on MLF. Question: Doesn't MLF happen naturally during the secondary fermentation? Does one really have to add a strain of ML? I am confused!

When we are talking about red wine from grapes, MLF (Malo Lactic Fermentation) IS the secondary fermentation. Alcoholic Fermentation is the Primary Fermentation. As to whether or not it happens spontaneously, that is more difficult to answer. In many wineries, they re-use barrels in which MLF has been conducted in the past, and the bacteria are already there, so none need be added. Even when they are topping up new barrels with wine from old barrels, that action transfers the bacteria. As a result, many large wineries don't add and bacteria at all, just relying on what is already in the barrels, and in some cases, already on the grapes.

The same thing occurs with yeast, the yeast that lives in the winemaking area and on the vines/grapes themselves is often allowed to conduct alcoholic fermentation without adding a commercially obtained yeast. Some folks refer to this as fermentation from natural or wild yeasts. Here in my hometown, I have no clue what kind of mutant yeasts are hanging around, I don't want them fermenting my grapes, so I use commercial yeast, even though there may be some yeast still on the grapes from the vineyard they are grown in.

For us home wine makers, who don't have resident yeasts and ML bacteria floating around our wine growing and production areas, getting an operating culture is much more difficult, that is why we inoculate our wine with the bacteria and / or yeast of our choosing.

 

[Rice_Guy]

I add 25ppm when opening, I try to maintain quiescent samples as turkey baster or 50 cc syringe,, on the theory that I am quiescent/ several inches down is not disturbed I simply add powder and recap (some folks will suggest that you mix in a bit of wine, campden is a tablet crush/mix in wine ). ,,,, top off head space.

With K meta this works out to 0.1 gram per gallon. A campden tablet is 0.5 gram ie 5 gallon carboy (or 6), if needed you can break in half for 0.25 gram/ 3 gallon Carboy.
At bottling I use 50 ppm for dry, 60 for table, or 75 ppm for sweet.

Opinion, for most of us dosing meta is the biggest thing to improve shelf life/ quality.

 

[hounddawg]

. . . also, how do i know that mlf is happening? do i have to add a culture to the wine? will it happen naturally? I have an Apple, Kiwi, Strawberry, from 3/24, that is still bubbling. Degassing or MLF (1/40 sec.)?

are your wines country or do you do both country and traditional (grape) i have a stainless steel rod that has two replaceable plastic wings, you put it in the carboy to stir out gases and when i back sweeten i use dry sugar and use the same tool to stir in my back sweeten sugar in, it fits in a drill or cordless, and when able a AIO vacuum pump from steve is greatly helpful in racking, bottling, degassing. i use a hole house filter that steve sells, i buy on ebay my filters 1 micron for whites and 5 microns for reds, i use a polypropylene spun filters if bought in cases of 50 they run $ 1 each, not bad since you can rence them out put in zip lock and freeze till next time needed. a few sites labelpleerers.com northrenbrewery.com i'll have to write some more down to give you if needed right now northrenbrewery.com is selling wing bottles free shipping on orders over $50, don't know your area, i live in a very ruaul area and must order every thing, oh, and the best concentrates in my opinion f gallon for is homewinery.com but i either order by phone for a 6 gal you but 1 half gal and a pint, or for 2 6 gallons i use 3 half gallons per 12 gallon must,
Dawg

 

[hounddawg]

When we are talking about red wine from grapes, MLF (Malo Lactic Fermentation) IS the secondary fermentation. Alcoholic Fermentation is the Primary Fermentation. As to whether or not it happens spontaneously, that is more difficult to answer. In many wineries, they re-use barrels in which MLF has been conducted in the past, and the bacteria are already there, so none need be added. Even when they are topping up new barrels with wine from old barrels, that action transfers the bacteria. As a result, many large wineries don't add and bacteria at all, just relying on what is already in the barrels, and in some cases, already on the grapes.

The same thing occurs with yeast, the yeast that lives in the winemaking area and on the vines/grapes themselves is often allowed to conduct alcoholic fermentation without adding a commercially obtained yeast. Some folks refer to this as fermentation from natural or wild yeasts. Here in my hometown, I have no clue what kind of mutant yeasts are hanging around, I don't want them fermenting my grapes, so I use commercial yeast, even though there may be some yeast still on the grapes from the vineyard they are grown in.

For us home wine makers, who don't have resident yeasts and ML bacteria floating around our wine growing and production areas, getting an operating culture is much more difficult, that is why we inoculate our wine with the bacteria and / or yeast of our choosing.

johnd does that apply to grape wines only or is it used in country fruit and berry wines as well?
thank you
Dawg

 

[G259]

are your wines country or do you do both country and traditional (grape)

I have done country wines exclusively, but was thinking about trying a kit. I thought about a Chardonnay, and thought that MLF would be beneficial.

 

[hounddawg]

I have done country wines exclusively, but was thinking about trying a kit. I thought about a Chardonnay, and thought that MLF would be beneficial.

agreed, but i am old and disabled, so i will keep to my country wines, i hope i have the time to break in a younger molly mull, before they take my other foot off,ght a several piece of 1/2 targets for a gun i'm having then i'll just make country wines, i hope to get p garden and i have bought a set of target for 600 yard plinking, 1/2 armor steel targets, these should keep me busy,,,
Dawg

 

[G259]

I thought about trying a red, but white wine usually goes twice as fast as red around here. Supply and demand!

 

[Johnd]

johnd does that apply to grape wines only or is it used in country fruit and berry wines as well?
thank you
Dawg

Richard, I'm not a big fruit wine maker, so I certainly can't speak for the entire regime of fruit wine makers; from my readings here on our forum, it seems that the vast majority of fruit wine makers do not conduct MLF on their fruit wines.

Some fruit wines contain a lot of malic acid. Apple, for example, has lots of it, if you were to conduct MLF of apple wine, it may completely change the taste profile of the wine by converting all of that malic to lactic acid. I don't know if that would be good or bad. In grape wine, as malic isn't present in huge numbers (tartaric is typically the predominant acid), so it just serves to smooth out the wine and take a little of the sharpness out of the acidity.

 

[hounddawg]

Richard, I'm not a big fruit wine maker, so I certainly can't speak for the entire regime of fruit wine makers; from my readings here on our forum, it seems that the vast majority of fruit wine makers do not conduct MLF on their fruit wines.

Some fruit wines contain a lot of malic acid. Apple, for example, has lots of it, if you were to conduct MLF of apple wine, it may completely change the taste profile of the wine by converting all of that malic to lactic acid. I don't know if that would be good or bad. In grape wine, as malic isn't present in huge numbers (tartaric is typically the predominant acid), so it just serves to smooth out the wine and take a little of the sharpness out of the acidity.

just checking, i got country wines going back several years with no trouble, bt i keep seeing this sope about so i needed clarification,
thank you John
Richard

 

[hounddawg]

I thought about trying a red, but white wine usually goes twice as fast as red around here. Supply and demand!

blackberry is fantastic
Dawg

 

[hounddawg]

blackberry is fantastic
Dawg

in the deer hunting areas i have tons of bair patches/blackberries and wild plum, i have lots of muscine, but never cultivated,, so in the treetops, i got one on a white oak tree is better then 4 foot hru and the muscadine on it looks better than 6 inches, that's where i go hide to relax,,,
Dawg

 

[justsipn]

Quick question. I'm planning to rack my wine again next weekend. Last time, I racked it into the bucket, took the carboy outside, rinsed it out. I then sanitized it, rinsed it well again, then siphoned the wine back in.

So, here's my question, I have a 350 foot well into the largest aquifer in North America. This water has been filtered down through sand..etc. for a very long time. Do I need to sanitize? Or, can I just rinse out the lees and put the wine back in?

I'm assuming the answer is, "always play it safe and sanitize everything every time". But, I thought I would ask.

 

[winemaker81]

I'm assuming the answer is, "always play it safe and sanitize everything every time". But, I thought I would ask.

Play it safe. It only take a few moments to rinse the carboy with K-meta water and shake out the residue.

Well water can have stuff growing in it. Safe enough for consumption, but it may do bad things to your wine.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Yes the water should be clean, ,,,, how about the pipes in your house and into the pump house and is there a 1000 cow CAFO in the township and is there a Dow Teflon plant up river in the watershed and is it run through a softener . . . On the property with my grape vines I had a water test as part of the purchase. . . a guess is you have had the water tested too, and you are clean

I have chlorinated city water so mine may have a lower bacterial count. ,,, and a greater chemical contaminants level. As @winemaker81 ,says , play safe