2018 Cab Blends

[Mario Dinis]

Just curious here since I've never heard those terms, but what's "drain and return" and "co-fermentation"?

 

[stickman]

In this case, co-fermentation refers to combining and fermenting all of the grape varieties together. Historically this has been a tradition where certain vineyards were inter-planted with different grape varieties that were known from experience to compliment each other. Co-fermentation is sometimes confused with co-inoculation which usually refers to the addition of the malolactic culture early during the primary fermentation process.

"Drain and return" is just that, the fermenting juice is drained from the skins or "cap" and then returned or dumped back into the fermenter. If you drain a pail at a time and dump back, I would say it is the same as a "pump over", but if you drain all of the juice and allow the cap to drain and then return, I would say that is different than a pump over and is sometimes called a "delestage".

 

[Mario Dinis]

In this case, co-fermentation refers to combining and fermenting all of the grape varieties together. Historically this has been a tradition where certain vineyards were inter-planted with different grape varieties that were known from experience to compliment each other. Co-fermentation is sometimes confused with co-inoculation which usually refers to the addition of the malolactic culture early during the primary fermentation process.

"Drain and return" is just that, the fermenting juice is drained from the skins or "cap" and then returned or dumped back into the fermenter. If you drain a pail at a time and dump back, I would say it is the same as a "pump over", but if you drain all of the juice and allow the cap to drain and then return, I would say that is different than a pump over and is sometimes called a "delestage".

Thank you

 

[stickman]

Completed the press yesterday, the press yield was around 8gal for each batch, the overall yield was 38gal per batch, I expect 35gal each after gross lees racking. The sg was .992, but the press released a little sugar as usual. All of the wine was put back into pails with lids to settle, will dump into the tanks today. The Moon mountain batch has a woody tannic note that is very interesting, the Red mountain batch currently has a bit less tannin and more noticeable fruit, obviously too early to make any real determinations, but they are definitely different wines.
I don't have a phone right now so I'm using an older camera for these, it seems like I have to take 5 to get one usable shot, then again, after a few glasses of wine it could just be operator error.

 

[Mario Dinis]

WOW, with that pomace you could make a nice batch of Aguardente (Grappa).

 

[stickman]

Yea, we had 4 pomace cakes like that one, but these days I feel like the wine is enough work. Maybe with a big chest freezer it could be saved for a better time.

 

[stickman]

Racked off of the gross lees Dec 27th and transferred to the tanks, allowed air contact, added two French oak staves to each tank, also added CH16 ML culture.

Obvious ML activity has been visible in the tanks for the past week, I'll probably do a chromatogram in a week or so just to get a starting point for comparison. Nothing unusual to report.

 

[Johnd]

Racked off of the gross lees Dec 27th and transferred to the tanks, allowed air contact, added two French oak staves to each tank, also added CH16 ML culture.

Obvious ML activity has been visible in the tanks for the past week, I'll probably do a chromatogram in a week or so just to get a starting point for comparison. Nothing unusual to report.

View attachment 52890

Lookin good @stickman , I can almost smell the fruity aroma wafting out of the tank.....

 

[Mario Dinis]

Racked off of the gross lees Dec 27th and transferred to the tanks, allowed air contact, added two French oak staves to each tank, also added CH16 ML culture.

Obvious ML activity has been visible in the tanks for the past week, I'll probably do a chromatogram in a week or so just to get a starting point for comparison. Nothing unusual to report.

View attachment 52890

Can you one do a ML fermentation with pre squeezed grape juice bought in 6 gallon pails or only with juice from grapes squeezed at home?

 

[cmason1957]

Can you one do a ML fermentation with pre squeezed grape juice bought in 6 gallon pails or only with juice from grapes squeezed at home?

You can do Mlf on any juice, no matter where it came from. Except you don't want to do it on a wine kit. I do it on juice brought in from Chili and California almost every year.

 

[stickman]

Checked pH and also ran a chromatogram; ML looks to be complete, pH is 3.63 for the Moon Mountain blend, and 3.69 for the Red Mountain blend, I'll probably wait another couple of weeks before racking and sulfiting.

 

[stickman]

Finally did the post ML racking on these two Cab blends, they were just starting to pick up a hint of reduction. Pumped to clean tanks and added two additional staves for a total of 4, the two I just added are American oak med+ convection toast, I don't remember ordering American oak staves so I'll have to check the records, I added them before I realized they were different, we'll see what happens. Added 35ppm so2 to both tanks during transfer.

Red Mtn pH 3.67
Moon Mtn pH 3.61

A little reductive and tannic at this point, it took a couple of hours in the glass to open up, the red mountain definitely has a little less tannin and fruit perfume that makes it different. Color looks nearly the same, Moon Mtn on the left, Red Mtn on the right.

 

[mainshipfred]

When you talk about reductive, what are you referring to.

 

[stickman]

My use of the term is associated with the wine aromatics closing up due to lack of oxygen, these Cabs are fairly tannic, and before any sulfites are added, the wine has a high oxygen demand, much higher than what the plastic can pass. I didn't blanket the wine during the transfer, and the additional two staves will slowly provide some needed oxygen.

 

[mainshipfred]

My use of the term is associated with the wine aromatics closing up due to lack of oxygen, these Cabs are fairly tannic, and before any sulfites are added, the wine has a high oxygen demand, much higher than what the plastic can pass. I didn't blanket the wine during the transfer, and the additional two staves will slowly provide some needed oxygen.

Got it, my commercial friend advised me not to be shy with aerating the wine in the early stages.

 

[SethF]

So please tell me about your experience with the flex tanks. Are those 15 gallons or 30 gallons? Do you have the ability to compare the micro oxygenation to barrels? Do you end up losing any volume to evaporation?

 

[stickman]

I have 4 of the 30gal ECO Maturation tanks. I purchased the first tank in 2010 after my previous two 30gal barrels went neutral. My experience with the tanks so far has been good, but I think a barrel is still the gold standard; the tanks have certain advantages with respect to ease of cleaning and empty storage, controlled oxygen permeability, new oak of your choice for each batch, and light weight (approx 22lbs).

I don't have any instrumentation for scientific analysis of the rate of micro oxygenation etc. The gas and water vapor permeability of various plastic materials is well known and documented in the food packaging industry. I don't believe there is any significant evaporation loss from the tank, though unrelated, the level of wine does drop over time as the staves become soaked.

 

[SethF]

I have 4 of the 30gal ECO Maturation tanks. I purchased the first tank in 2010 after my previous two 30gal barrels went neutral. My experience with the tanks so far has been good, but I think a barrel is still the gold standard; the tanks have certain advantages with respect to ease of cleaning and empty storage, controlled oxygen permeability, new oak of your choice for each batch, and light weight (approx 22lbs).

I don't have any instrumentation for scientific analysis of the rate of micro oxygenation etc. The gas and water vapor permeability of various plastic materials is well known and documented in the food packaging industry. I don't believe there is any significant evaporation loss from the tank, though unrelated, the level of wine does drop over time as the staves become soaked.

Thanks. Where are you getting the Oak Staves in those sizes?
Are you racking to empty tanks, or to other containers and then back into the tanks?
I would be so afraid to be doing the work on the hardwoods!
Still debating, and concerned about handling of the tanks, esp the 30 gallons.
I presently use 6.5 and 7.5 Fermonsters, and like them, but I don't believe there is any O2 permeability.
I asked about the angel's share because I think it contributes to the viscosity and concentration of the wine.
I will never deal with barrels, just not worth it for me.

 

[stickman]

I usually rack from tank to tank, if I get into a bind I can always temporarily use a Brute or a couple of demijohns. There are many suppliers for staves like that, those particular staves I purchased direct from evOak. Presque Isle caries the Mercier brand of staves, which I've also used; you have to call to place an order.

https://oaksolutionsgroup.com/evoak/

 

[Mario Dinis]

When you bottle your wine, how much metabilsulphite do you use to sanitize your bottles?