Yeast Strain Question

I started my second kit on Saturday WE Ausi Cab Sav. I was looking at the Lavin yeast chart earlier this week and saw that Bourgavin RC 212 is the yeast Lavin recommends for Cabs.

However, when I opened up the WE kit it had an EC-1118 yeast packet-champagne yeast. Confused, I called my local shop to see if this was a mistake and I was informed that WE uses EC-1118 in a lot of their kits. The reason being that WE makes batches with different yeasts and has a Somm taste them and recommend which one to package prior to putting out a kit.

So here's my question:

For those who switch out the yeast that comes with the kit, what have your results been?

TheWinoandIknow said:

I started my second kit on Saturday WE Ausi Cab Sav. I was looking at the Lavin yeast chart earlier this week and saw that Bourgavin RC 212 is the yeast Lavin recommends for Cabs.

However, when I opened up the WE kit it had an EC-1118 yeast packet-champagne yeast. Confused, I called my local shop to see if this was a mistake and I was informed that WE uses EC-1118 in a lot of their kits. The reason being that WE makes batches with different yeasts and has a Somm taste them and recommend which one to package prior to putting out a kit.

So here's my question:

For those who switch out the yeast that comes with the kit, what have your results been?

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EC-1118 is really reliable and unfussy, which is a big part of its appeal.

RC 212 is a yeast that I've used with good results, and also find it to be pretty reliable.

Either one would be fine for your wine.

heatherd said:

EC-1118 is really reliable and unfussy, which is a big part of its appeal.

RC 212 is a yeast that I've used with good results, and also find it to be pretty reliable.

Either one would be fine for your wine.

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Thanks Heather! I went ahead with EC-1118 yesterday. When you used the RC-212 was it with a kit or with your own recipe?

It was on a 12 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon from local fresh juice + a frozen must pail from juicegrapes.com.

Many people switch out the EC-1118 that comes with kits. I have never made the Cab that you are asking about, but have used RC-212 in place of the included EC-1118. I have never made two kits the same side-by-side to compare the results of two different yeasts. That is something I've always thought about doing, but never wanted 60 bottles of the same wine.

Steve

1118 is bullet proof, that's why it is in kits. If you do swap, be prepared to monitor it.

Yest Strain Question

cpfan said:

Many people switch out the EC-1118 that comes with kits. I have never made the Cab that you are asking about, but have used RC-212 in place of the included EC-1118. I have never made two kits the same side-by-side to compare the results of two different yeasts. That is something I've always thought about doing, but never wanted 60 bottles of the same wine.

Steve

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If you have some 3gal carboys you can do this with one 6gal kit. I have an experiment like this going right now using a single 6 gal Eclipse Chardonnay. I mixed up the bentonite, juice and water in a 7.5 gal primary. Then I racked 3 gallons into a smaller 5 gal food safe bucket from Lowes. Used the EC1118 on one batch and D47 on the other. After primary fermentation, I racked each to 3 gal carboys. I split the other chemicals evenly between the two batches. I was very surprised by the difference in the taste when I sampled both 6 weeks or so after pitching the yeast. I read somewhere that the taste differences due to the yeast fade after a year to a year and a half. It will be interesting to see if that is true.

Dhaynes said:

If you have some 3gal carboys you can do this with one 6gal kit. I have an experiment like this going right now using a single 6 gal Eclipse Chardonnay. I mixed up the bentonite, juice and water in a 7.5 gal primary. Then I racked 3 gallons into a smaller 5 gal food safe bucket from Lowes. Used the EC1118 on one batch and D47 on the other. After primary fermentation, I racked each to 3 gal carboys. I split the other chemicals evenly between the two batches. I was very surprised by the difference in the taste when I sampled both 6 weeks or so after pitching the yeast. I read somewhere that the taste differences due to the yeast fade after a year to a year and a half. It will be interesting to see if that is true.

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That's a good idea...Which yeast was better in your opinion?

The D47 was much better. The one with the EC1118 was astringent and harsh tasting just like I would expect at this young age. The D47 was much smoother and buttery. Tasted like a much more mature wine.

Dhaynes said:

The D47 was much better. The one with the EC1118 was astringent and harsh tasting just like I would expect at this young age. The D47 was much smoother and buttery. Tasted like a much more mature wine.

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Hmmm, wonder if I should try D47, I plan on making a Spanish Tempranillo wine next. That wine needs the mineral taste from the grape and the 1118 seems to overpower some flavors.

DoctorCAD said:

1118 is bullet proof, that's why it is in kits. If you do swap, be prepared to monitor it.

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Just what he said,they use it in their kits because it is hearty and will withstand some mishandling.I would have switched.

4Score and I did 3 2000 lb ferments; Barbera, Zinfandel, Mourvedre. Each time we split the lot and fermented one with D80, the other with D254. The resulting flavor of each yeast was quite different, but in each case we blended the two together at pressing.....except for two carboys of Barbera. We have a D80 and a D254 Carboy that were never blended to test this theory that the differences in flavor are minimized with time (4Score's idea). The carboys are in 4Score's garage winery. I'll let him know to update this thread, the next time he tastes them; it's been 6 months since fermentation.
We have a local winery that makes amazing wines and uses 1118. We also have a local winemaker (MS UCD enology) that said the same thing; give wine a year and the differences will be minimal. So, we have a real live test going, that has reached the mid point. They certainly started out different, literally tasted like two different wines....so we shall see.

Yes, an interesting test. We have heard that these two strains (D80, D254) pair really well. The theory is that separately fermented batches, blended together, will add smell and taste "complexity" to the wine. Sounded good enough to get us to bite, so away we went with the concept of separate fermentations with these two strains. I was really interested in understanding the difference, so I withheld a carboy of each. I'm due to test and taste them soon. The last time I did, there was an amazing difference between the two. One smelled more fruity and floral than the other, however the one that didn't have the strong floral/fruit nose actually TASTED more fruit forward. I had others confirm this observation so I knew I wasn't imagining it.

Subsequent to our decision to do separate ferments with different strains, we heard from a local commercial winemaker that he heard (from some paper at UC Davis) that after some time (6 months?) the difference between the two yeasts will be less noticeable. I'm hoping that's not true because I like the attributes that different yeasts bring to the party. We're about to the 6-month mark, so I need to do another smell & taste comparison. NorCal suggested taking three wine glasses and getting 2 samples from one carboy and one sample from the other carboy and see if people can group them correctly. Sounds like a good excuse to try the wine this weekend!! I will update with the results.

Results are in. After 6 months, the same juice fermented with two different yeast strains remains distinctly different from one another. The wine that used D254 yeast was still more aromatic. The smell gave you a lot to look forward to in the taste. Very floral, fruity smell. On the other hand, the wine that used D80 had a much more subtle smell, almost tamped down like it was hiding. There was a subtle note of black fruit. In terms of taste, that same D80 with the subtle nose was just the opposite, very bright fruit taste that had an interesting "rounded" mid-palette mouthfeel that was very pleasing. The more floral D254 was still good, but lacked that same rounding mid-palette satisfaction.

I would say that time is closing the gap somewhat between these, but at 6 months there is still a noticeable difference. Probably the gap is closing more on the nose than on the taste. Very interesting. I'll see if the results change in another few months.

4score said:

Results are in. After 6 months, the same juice fermented with two different yeast strains remains distinctly different from one another. The wine that used D254 yeast was still more aromatic. The smell gave you a lot to look forward to in the taste. Very floral, fruity smell. On the other hand, the wine that used D80 had a much more subtle smell, almost tamped down like it was hiding. There was a subtle note of black fruit. In terms of taste, that same D80 with the subtle nose was just the opposite, very bright fruit taste that had an interesting "rounded" mid-palette mouthfeel that was very pleasing. The more floral D254 was still good, but lacked that same rounding mid-palette satisfaction.

I would say that time is closing the gap somewhat between these, but at 6 months there is still a noticeable difference. Probably the gap is closing more on the nose than on the taste. Very interesting. I'll see if the results change in another few months.

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Hi, 4Score. It's been over a year now since your last post about your side-by-side yeast comparison. Do you have an update? Did the differences in the two yeasts continue to fade, or is one still decidedly better than the other?
-Nell

TemperanceOwl said:

Hi, 4Score. It's been over a year now since your last post about your side-by-side yeast comparison. Do you have an update? Did the differences in the two yeasts continue to fade, or is one still decidedly better than the other?
-Nell

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This should be interesting. My bet is that he plowed through these bottles long ago.

TemperanceOwl said:

Hi, 4Score. It's been over a year now since your last post about your side-by-side yeast comparison. Do you have an update? Did the differences in the two yeasts continue to fade, or is one still decidedly better than the other?
-Nell

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LOL....I have NOT plowed through ALL of the wine, but I'm working on it!

Right up to bottling last June, the 2 versions held their uniqueness. We opted to blend them at that point. The resultant wine was spectacular - complex and something we drink OFTEN now! I wished I had held the experiment longer but maybe next time.

Follow-up comment. As good as the wine did with this "blending" of yeasts, other projects we've done have introduced some H2S stink during early barreling. A LOT of work to cure the wine if that happens. Our new approach is using Andante Yeast (http://www.renaissanceyeast.com/en/products/andante). No H2S possible with this winner....plus its fast and has high alcohol tolerance.

Please don't run out and get this strain......I don't want to create a shortage this year!

For the kit manufacturer, the object of yeast if to ferment. As said earlier EC1118 is bullet proof.

EC1118 is a champagne yeast. It has a very high tolerance to alcohol and ferments like a bull in china shop. This makes it perfect for champagne where yeast and sugar is added to still wine to create carbonation.

This also makes EC1118 a great yeast to add when you have a stuck fermentation.

EC1118 was cultivated with only one thing in mind, fermentation. It was not bred for the types of flavor profiles that it adds to wine.