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jgmann67

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I'm not out of the primary with my RJS Cabernet and would like to know your opinion on my next kit project. I'm making this pretty much for my wife. She likes Chardonnay. Every day wine is the Kendall Vintner's Reserve Chard. Special occasion chards are Fisher Vineyards Unity And Shafer Red Shoulder Ranch. Of her two favorites, I'm a Shafer fan.

Here's the 2013 description:

Shafer:

"The 2013 fills your glass with citrus-flower aromas and flavors of apricot, red and green apple, honeysuckle, kiwi, pineapple, Meyer Lemon zest, and vanilla – a luscious, juicy basket of summer fruit held together with just the right touch of minerality and lively acidity."

Kendall:

Winemaker's Notes

"Beautifully integrated tropical flavors such as pineapple, mango, and papaya with citrus notes that explode in your mouth. These flavors delicately intertwine with aromas of vanilla and honey to create depth and balance throughout. A hint of toasted oak and butter rounds out the long, lingering finish."

In common: crisp, citrus, peach tone; with a buttery, vanilla finish. Light oak.

What would you recommend? Ready? Go!
 
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I see that you are enjoying making kits, but have you ever considered making wine from fresh grapes?? There are places taking orders for Chilean grapes.....
 
To John's point: the oaky, buttery flavors come from malolactic fermentation and/or sur lie aging. The sur lie, you can do on a kit. Malo? Not so much. A Chardonnay juice bucket might be a good choice. Heck, at bucket prices, you could do two; one using malo, sur lie, and oak, and one not. That'll give you two very different wines to compare.

I've only done one Chard kit: the Renaissance Australian Chardonnay. I barrel fermented it and gave it the kit oak. It is a good kit, but for my taste, I overdid the oak. Behind that though, is a crisp, full bodied chardonnay.
 
I see that you are enjoying making kits, but have you ever considered making wine from fresh grapes?? There are places taking orders for Chilean grapes.....


Sure I have. So far, I've only made one kit, though.

Crawl, walk, run, drive, fly...

Starting with grapes is like flying, when I'm still crawling around.
 
To John's point: the oaky, buttery flavors come from malolactic fermentation and/or sur lie aging. The sur lie, you can do on a kit. Malo? Not so much. A Chardonnay juice bucket might be a good choice. Heck, at bucket prices, you could do two; one using malo, sur lie, and oak, and one not. That'll give you two very different wines to compare.



I've only done one Chard kit: the Renaissance Australian Chardonnay. I barrel fermented it and gave it the kit oak. It is a good kit, but for my taste, I overdid the oak. Behind that though, is a crisp, full bodied chardonnay.


I did not know. Awesome information. I've been reading a bit about MLF. But, this is the first I'm hearing of sur lie aging. I really want to get this one right for her. Looks like I'll need to do some more research.
 
Chardonnay kits

MIGHT I give you some insight on the follow
Cornocopia Chardonnay Kit
This kit we purchased off Amazon for ~$45.00 shipped. This kit is contained the chardonnay concentrate, as well as labels, corks, caps, packets of yeast, sorbate, bentonite, k-met, and chitosan. This kit contains the essentials for any new winemaker (minus the basic equipment that is needed.) and by the way KATE won FIRST PLACE AT GLASSBORO WINE FESTIVAL WHEN DONE THIS WHITE IS UNIQUE FOR A EARLY WINE .JUST A THOUGHT
What we added:
1 cup American Oak cubes
2 ball jars of simple syrup
Spring Water
The steps:
First, we added the bentonite and ½ gal. warm water and stirred until dissolved.
Next, we added the packet of chardonnay juice and then topped up to 6 gallon mark on our primary fermenter.
Then, we took an SG reading. The kit as is, came to 1.080. We wanted our SG reading to be at 1.10, so we added the ball jars of simple syrup, one at a time (and took readings in between). We ended up using both jars and this brought us up to our desired SG reading: 1.10. We wanted this specific SG reading because we do not want fermented fruit juice, we wanted wine.
Next, we gave the bucket a good stir, added the yeast, and then added our American Oak cubes.
The last step: We document the contents on our tag, hang it on the bucket, and drape a towel over the top. Now we wait.
Update!!
We checked the SG tonight (6/20/14) and it is at 0.99. This is dry and ready to rack to the secondary carboy. We racked it to our secondary, marked the SG reading and the date on our tag and hung it on the carboy.
Our wine is coming along!
Stay tuned... :)
ing kits.

2 box.jpg

1 contents.jpg

8 add simple syrup.jpg

12 cup american oak cubes.jpg

13 American Oak cubes.jpg
 
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Joe - yes, you not only might, but actually did! Thank you!! This is very good stuff!

If you've done this kit before, what can you tell me about the wine, it's taste/smell? How long would you age before drinking?

Also, that's a heavy concentrate and I noticed you said "spring water". Is that a personal preference thing or is normal well water okay?
 
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Chardonnay kits

YES, only filtered water I use nothing in the mix but filtered water ,I've do this from the beginning. With the water my thoughts are I'm adding nothing in the mix except water no other factors that a well or city water may have adding to the chemical make-up or taste, understand?:HB
THE base wine itself might be some form of chardonnay concentrate, knowing that it is a base wine you have a clear palate to work from. The taste is good for the price of the kit but what sets it apart is the tweaks you add to the base that makes it a better wine in the end ,drinking time depends on you these kits are early design so my take is two to three mos. after bottling enjoy.:i
 
To expand on what Jim and JohnT are saying: if what your wife likes about chardonnay is the "buttery" flavor, that is typically accomplished in commercial wine by malolactic fermentation, which shouldn't be done to a kit.

But, you can do something else: sur lie and batonnage. All you need is a spoon. :)

I have a chardonnay bulk-aging and had intended to do sur lie and batonnage during the process but didn't get a chance to do so.

Basically, the sur lie process is leaving the wine on the fine lees, and batonnage is stirring. They are both ways to get close to a buttery commercial chardonnay with a kit. In practice, that would mean you'd rack part of the way during fermentation, maybe halfway, and leave behind the gross lees; then you'd let the balance of fermentation happen on the lees and stir the fine lees into the wine daily, or as often as your time permits.


Here's info:

Why use lees?

When yeast cells die their cell walls breakdown, gradually releasing such compounds into the wine as polysaccharides (e.g. glucose), amino acids (and peptides), fatty acids, and mannoproteins. The compounds released can influence the structural integration of the wine in terms of phenols (including tannins), body, aroma, oxidative buffering and wine stability.

At the end of alcoholic fermentation, yeast cells autolyse. Yeast autolysis is a slow process involving hydrolytic enzymes which act to release cytoplasmic (peptides, fatty acids, nucleotides, amino acids) and cell wall (mannoproteins) compounds into the wine.

The primary reasons for sur lie ageing are usually based on stylistic goals: to enhance the structure and mouthfeel of a wine, give it extra body (an impact of polysaccharides on astringency), and increase the aromatic complexity, flavour/aroma depth and length. Lees also absorb oxygen, assisting in maintaining a slow and controlled oxidation during maturation. Lees stirring can increase the release of yeast compounds into the wine bulk. Stirring can result in a creamy, viscous mouth feel, and can enhance flavour complexity.

Some of the compounds from broken down yeast cells also contribute to wine in the following ways:
•polysaccharides contribute a roundness and volume to the palate
•mannoproteins can bind with anthocyanins and tannins to increase colour stability and decrease astringency
•the nutrients released from the dead yeast cells assist the growth of malolactic bacteria
•increased palate length, attributed to the late release of particular volatile compounds in the polysaccharide network of the fruit and yeast
•they can assist in protection from oxidation of particular fruit aroma compounds.
•the process of proteolysis, whereby proteins are hydrolysed to amino acids (which can act as flavour precursors, possibly enhancing flavour complexity) and peptides (which travel through the yeast cell walls causing an increase in nitrogen content).
•dead yeast liberate esters, particularly fatty acids with sweet/spicy (fruity) aromas (such as ethyl hexanoate and ethyl octanoate); this coincides with the time when fermentation esters (such as isoamyle acetate and hexyle acetate) experience hydrolysis, resulting in combined sweet/spicy/fruit aromas
•the release of amino acids and nucleic acids can enhance flavours and complex aromas, particularly at the end of the palate
•they yield a sweetness when binding with wood phenols and organic acids
•they modify wine esters and wood aromas
•they provide a natural fining, reducing more yellow colours in whites
•they improve protein stability (current research suggests that lees do this by producing an extra mannoprotein (polysaccharidic molecules which constitute ~35% of the yeast's cell) which prevents polymerisation of tannins, pigments and volatiles; and more of this compound is released when the temperature is increased, and with greater contact time and lees stirring frequency)
•they can assist potassium bitartrate stability, since mannoproteins act as potassium bitartrate crystal inhibitors
•they can reduce colour: the more yeast cell surface area, the higher the absorption and subsequent loss of colour
Lees and oak
Lees can help remove harsh oak phenolics and assist in integrating oak flavours. Lees substances (such as polysaccharides) bind with free ellagic tannins, modifying wood tannin astringency and thus reducing the amount of perceived tannins.
Additionally, lees substances can bind with wood-derived compounds such as vanillin, furfural and methyl-octalactones, modifying the oak aromas present in the wine.

Lees and MLF
Lees contact is often run parallel with malolactic fermentation. The goals of each technique are similar in some respects (e.g. creating a wine which is generally perceived as softer). Lees in the presence of MLF tends to lead to lower diacetyl ("buttery") concentrations, since the yeast metabolise the diacetyl to the non-aromatic compounds acetoin and 2,3-butanediol.

Lees control: types and quantity
Lees stirring is usually conducted on "fine lees" and not "gross/heavy lees".
Heavy lees can be defined as comprising of particles that are typically 100 microns to 2 millimetres. They tend to settle within 24 hours (without pectin). This definition certainly includes fruit debris. Fruit debris can impart off and herbaceous aromas and flavours and can combine with SO2 blocking its antimicrobial and antioxidant properties. Heavy lees may yet further be defined as those substances continually forming in wine. In this case they may also comprise of yeast, bacteria, precipitated tannins/colouring matter/colloids, and particles formed from fining treatments. These can release undesirable bitter substances into the wine.

Light lees comprise of particles that are typically of size one micron to a few tens of microns. They tend to remain in suspension for longer than 24 hours after they have been agitated. They are comprised of yeast and lactic bacteria (produced towards the end of alcoholic fermentation and malolactic fermentation, respectively). Light lees is favoured for sur lie and stirring, but still poses risks of producing reductive aromas/flavours if inappropriately managed.

Separating the gross/heavy lees from the must provides the first opportunity to control the content of lees in the must/wine (the process is called "débourbage" in French). The first racking following alcoholic fermentation gives an opportunity to control the amount of fine lees to be used for sur lie ageing. Choosing the timing of heavy lees separation is an important aspect of lees management. Many winemakers make a judgement on the amount of lees to include in the bulk wine (or whether to include any at all) based on its taste (whether "clean" or "dirty" smelling) at either of these two important stages.

Lees and yeast
The influence of the compounds from broken down yeast cells depends on the individual yeast strains (though the release kinetics of mannoproteins appears to be independent of yeast strain). Different results should therefore be expected from different yeasts. While this influence is not important as other features (such as lees quantity and type control), it may still be taken into consideration.

Lees stirring (Bâtonnage)
Bâtonnage is the French term for stirring the settled lees back into the wine.

Method of stirring
Any method which redistributes the lees thoroughly provides an adequate method of stirring, but different methods contribute differently to wine.
On a moderate scale (such as a single barrel), this can be achieved by the use of a steel rod with a paddle at the end which can be placed in the tank or barrel and spun with an electric drill attached.
On a small scale, a food turntable can be used which allows the process to be controlled externally.
It is important to note the oxygen exposure that each method exerts on the wine, since this will significantly impact wine development.

Intensity and frequency
Lees should be stirred thoroughly, bringing all lees into suspension. The more lees there is, the more frequently stirring should be conducted.
 
Chardonnay kits

I think that is a bit much to expect from a inexpensive kit and for most kits that I have made (and that's a lot) the difference if any would not have been worth the trouble that's why it's not considered in the process anywhere that I've have seen ,the process you describe is a process mainly for fresh press grapes where there is a lot of prime sediment to work with and mainly for whites ,most fresh juice wine buckets don't have enough sediment in the bottom to make a difference.:dgat least that's how I see it, I could be wrong...............:d
 
JGmann - I did the Eclipse Sonoma Dry Creek Chardonnay in Nov 2013. It is not oaked and I did do the Sur Lie method on it for a month, stirring everything up every 3 days. I'm not a big Chardonnay fan and made it for friends and family, but we opened a bottle last week and it was very good. I have 14 bottles left which I'll be stingy with for a while.

I would recommend following Joe's advice and do a fairly inexpensive kit and add to it as Joe recommends (oaking it for the wife & bumping up the SG). I would also recommend what Joe recommended to me. Consider adding the zest of a small grapefruit to the secondary, or after you clear it. Good luck.

Dave
 
It's hard to quantify a "small grapefruit", however, find the smallest at the store, and zest it. When adding that to 6 Gal, it shouldn't over power that much wine. The trick would be not to leave it in too long. Perhaps just a week and then rack it off the zest. If you're using the Sur Lie method, add the zest after. Please let us know how it turns out.

Dave
 
I just bottled my chardonnay yesterday, so didn't want to comment until I tasted it. It is the Winexpert Selection California Chardonnay. This is the one I had intended to stir every day on lees, but didn't get a chance.

So tasting this wine, it is still fruity but with a definite finish of vanilla. The tweaks: Added white grapes and oak chips the fermentation; I skipped sorbate at stabilization; did not add the superkleer but gave extra time to clear. I had a fairly light hand with the oak, but that is to my taste - those who prefer more could do powder in primary, chips and spirals in carboy.

It's tasty now and will be great in the summer.

Heather
 
So tasting this wine, it is still fruity but with a definite finish of vanilla. The tweaks: Added white grapes and oak chips the fermentation; I skipped sorbate at stabilization; did not add the superkleer but gave extra time to clear. I had a fairly light hand with the oak, but that is to my taste - those who prefer more could do powder in primary, chips and spirals in carboy.


How did you prep the white grapes?
 

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