Wines that ferment at higher temperatures

[corinth]

Since I live in Southern California, It can be warm all year long in my neck of the woods, typically 75 -85 degrees inside the house with the AC on.

My question is this, are there certain wines that typically ferment at higher temps(I am sure there are but I am no expert). I have read that white wines generally ferment at lower temps than reds and ...

I know that certain yeasts do better in certain temps (reading yeast charts)and that varying the temp of fermentation can have its benefits. Right now I am fermenting a Pinot Noir at approximately 63 -68 degrees just to see how it turns out.

I can use ice packs( as in the Pinot) or big containers to bring down the temp for certain wines. I have a small freezer in my garage and my neighbor says they will let me borrow their extra fridge in exchange for some wine but in general,

Are there certain wines that generally do better at higher temps which would give me a little leeway. I am sure there are but I am to new at this to know which ones.

Help?
Corinth

 

[seth8530]

Red wines tend to do better than white wines at higher temperature. But what it really boils down to is the yeast strain you are using. Also, something key to remember is that it is the wine temperature not the room temperature that matters. The temperature of the must can be quite a bit cooler or hotter than room temperature depending on what is going on.

 

[corinth]

Wines that ferment at higher temps

Thanks for the quick reply Seth.
I do know that reds tend to do better at higher temps and I have read a lot of wine yeast charts that give their temp parameters and how fast they ferment.

I have multiple thermometers in my house since I do a lot of baking so temperature is a big thing so keeping track of the temp in the primary I am pretty good at.

I than you again for your quick reply Seth. I know that the way my thread is stating almost sounds like a trick question. but to a novice like me, and what I have read so far, I definitely need some direction to know what I should be asking, to point me in the right direction.

Thanks,
Corinth

 

[seth8530]

I imagine cab sav would likely do well. Ie, Reds that are not particallry fruit forward and rely on getting lots of tannin and other goodies from the grape skins and seeds.

 

[corinth]

Wines that ferment wll at higher temps

Again, thank you Seth. After reading what I wrote, I edited it . I read , I get an "aha" moment, then read again and get confused 'cause there are so many variables. So, I go to this forum where people like you and others can help me figure out what I should be asking. I am not afraid of being confused, wrong or ignorant. I am more afraid of ruining a good batch of wine though I have in the past and will in the future. I am just attempting to minimize the risk.
cabernet sauvignon is one I have thought about for awhile and the kit that was mentioned previously in another post sounds like a good place to start.
Anyone have any other suggestions?

 

[DoctorCAD]

Its really hard to "ruin" a wine. In all the years I have been making wine, I have onkly "ruined" one, and that was due to a miscommunication, not an environmental issue.

Kit wine is VERY forgiving. Will they all turn out fantastic? No, but they will be OK, and far from "ruined".

 

[JohnT]

I tend to think of it this way...

Temperature is a way to control the metabolic activity of an organism. The colder the temp, the slower the metabolism. This is why we have refrigerators, to slow down the metabolism of food born bacteria.

Provided you stay, say below 100 degrees, ALL yeasts will do better in warmer temps than colder temps (at least from a metabolic standpoint).

There is far more risk in lower temps than in higher ones. In fact, one of the standard courses of action when facing a stuck fermentation is to raise the temperature of the must.

The decision to ferment hot or cold really does depend on your situation and what you are trying to achieve.

Cab Sav is typically fermented dry to "burn off the fruit" flavor profiles of the grape. Reds in general are fermented hot because the "fruitiness" of a cold ferment does not really mix well with the higher level of tannins in most every red.

This guideline is not just limited to reds. A classic chardonnay, which normally has a level of tannic structure normally found in most reds, is almost always fermented hot.

 

[corinth]

wines that ferment at higher temps

Thank you all, I will continue to read wine yeast charts, look over kits with my first focus on the Cabernet Sauvignon .

Corinth

 

[seth8530]

I will say, just to contrast to JohnT. I talked to a commercial Italian Winemaker ( his wines were excellent btw) and on his reds he tended to take them no warmer than 70-80 ish degrees since getting the temperatures too high can make the yeast angry and cause the production of some off flavours as well as other issues. I honestly think that speed of fermentation should be of minimal concern, but more of the consistance of the ferment as well as the health of the yeast.

Ie, fermenting at higher temps is fine, but I would not take the yeast outside of its recommended temperature range if I could at all avoid it. Also considering that you plan on fermetning a kit their is no real advantage to ramping the temperature way up to try and gain extra extraction. If I was you, I would focus on a nice clean healthy ferment.

 

[Calamity Cellars]

Fermenting red wines at higher temperatures is not done to 'burn off fruit flavors'. The goodies contained in the skins (all those wonderful red wine flavors and color) are water soluble. The higher temperatures aid in extracting those lovely flavors, aromas, and colors. In the case of red wines you are definitely sacrificing some of the delicate floral and sweet volatile aromas that cold fermentation helps retain but it is a necessary sacrifice to make a big bold red. Another benefit of higher fermentation is less bitter tannins.....yes, less.....The real bitter flavors and bruto tannins are in the seeds. These components are etoh soluble so higher fermentation temps means the wine is dry faster and, if you press right away, you are able to get the wine off the seeds sooner therefore less extraction.

BTW, one of the great fallacies making the wine making is the concern of breaking open seeds during press. Try biting one and tell me you think it is logical that those same seeds surrounded by cushy grape skins is going to break apart.

Since white wines are not made using the skins or seeds they are fermented cooler in an attempt to retain as much of the volatile aromas as possible.

 

[manvsvine]

Calamity is spot on.

Additionally What fermenting hot can help with is to lessen some of the vegital flavours in underripe reds . It's not a cure for the strong green pepper of unripe cab sauv but it can help by removing some of the other vegital volatile compounds .
This works well with varietals such as Syrah and many hybrids especially when combined with some American lightly toasted oak.

You also don't target a uniformly hot ferment , it's more of a spike in the fermentation curve. That spike gets up near the high end of the yeasts temperature range . All yeast manufacturers publish a fermentation temperature range for each yeast . Stick within it to avoid most issues.

Ec1118 is the most common yeast for kits and high alcohol wines , it has one of the widest temperature ranges of any yeast 50-86'f. Pretty hard to mess it up. It also doesn't produce much in the way of h2s or other issues when it gets stressed . So you can go into the 90s with your spike and still be ok.


I would disagree on the previous comments of Chardonnay being tannic as it's generally separated from tannic skin contact like other whites and I've never heard of it being fermented " hot" . Often jacketed tanks are used for primary for Chardonnay for the crisp style , In a barrel fermented Chardonnay you don't add any external heat and it usually peaks in the 65-75 range Max , it's often done cooler to lengthen the time for the barrel fermentation contact .

 

[JohnT]

MAN! Tough Crowd!


Calamity,

"Burn off the Fruit" and "burn off the veg" are obviously not scientific terms, rather terms that are used to describe the effect on the flavor of the resulting end product. I agree with all of your points. I was merely speaking figuratively on this.

Seeds: The only real concern I ever have with respect to seeds is during punch downs. If the punch down tool is driven hard to the bottom of the primary, one can crunch the seeds.


Manvsvine,

Most chardonnays are tannic mostly because of barrel aging. There are a ton of chardonnays where the winemaker is not looking for crisp, but looking for full bodied, tannic, oaky, and buttery (MLF). It really is a matter of what the winemaker is shooting for. More times than not the words "Select" or "Reserve" chardonnay means that this process was used (and the wine is a lot more expensive)


Seth,

I use RC212 on my reds, the recommended temp ceiling is 86 degrees. I have pushed this to 90 degrees (as a spike, or top of the bell curve). This has been my "go to" yeast for 20 years. I do find that the benefits of the higher temp (keep in mind that I ferment on the skins) are well worth it (even though I am pushing the outside edge of the envelope by 4 degrees)

You do make a good point though, and I should have mentioned this, that selecting the right yeast to use with the process of choice is very important.

 

[manvsvine]

Chardonnays are made in two distinct styles

Only one style is Oaked and mlf'd (and it's a style going out of fashion)
And generally the oaking is from a barrel fermentation which produces a soft integrated tannin and short duration oak exposure profile as opposed to a long duration oak ageing like in a red wine . This is because the yeast metabolise many of the oak compounds during the active ferment before the wine is racked out once dry.

The other style is without oak or mlf , often steel tank fermented very cool.

Neither is quality wise superior to the other , just different stylistically .
You can have sharp clean grand cru Chablis or fat oaky butter bomb Napa Chardonnays . I like them both , paired with the right food . If I can afford them .

 

[JohnT]

Chardonnays are made in two distinct styles

Only one style is Oaked and mlf'd (and it's a style going out of fashion)
And generally the oaking is from a barrel fermentation which produces a soft integrated tannin and short duration oak exposure profile as opposed to a long duration oak ageing like in a red wine . This is because the yeast metabolise many of the oak compounds during the active ferment before the wine is racked out once dry.

The other style is without oak or mlf , often steel tank fermented very cool.

Neither is quality wise superior to the other , just different stylistically .
You can have sharp clean grand cru Chablis or fat oaky butter bomb Napa Chardonnays . I like them both , paired with the right food . If I can afford them .

Could not agree more except I am surprised that you say that that style is going out of fashion. It is my preferred style for chardonnays.

I do agree with you. I did not mean to suggest otherwise (that one is better than the other). Like I said, it really is a matter of what the winemaker is going for.

 

[4score]

I also disagree that the oaked and mlf's chard is going out of fashion. There is a huge following and I'm one of them!

 

[manvsvine]

You can disagree all you like but sales figures in decanter , wines & vines and wine bussiness monthly show that new world oaky butter bomb sales have been on a serious decline for the last 5 years .

Almost parallels the decline of over the top Robert Parker style red wines.

Alcohol levels and oak use are becoming more restrained .

 

[Calamity Cellars]

you guys are hijacking this and getting off topic with am unrelated argument.

 

[manvsvine]

On WMT , a wander off topic? When technical points are being made?
That never happens! LOL ok almost always , it's a shallow pool of scientific knowledge after all.

My intended points on Chardonnay are , it's not fermented hot , nor is it tannic " like a red wine" .
It does not benefit from a heat spike like a red wine does because there are no skins present in the ferment to benefit from the warm extraction increasing solubility as you stated.

 

[corinth]

temperature fluctuation

Interesting Discussion. since I started this thread concerning temperature and fermentation, are there certain red wines that one camp views fermentation on a lower temp while the other at a higher temp, each with their own valid rationale and does this continue in the aging process?

Not sure exactly how to phrase it all as I do not have the experience I just know your replies give me food for thought which leads me to investigate and learn more and somewhere down the road to experiment.
Corinth

 

[JohnT]

Interesting Discussion. since I started this thread concerning temperature and fermentation, are there certain red wines that one camp views fermentation on a lower temp while the other at a higher temp, each with their own valid rationale and does this continue in the aging process?

Not sure exactly how to phrase it all as I do not have the experience I just know your replies give me food for thought which leads me to investigate and learn more and somewhere down the road to experiment.
Corinth

I am certain that there are reds where a cold ferment it the preferred way to go, but I'll be darned if I can think of one. I do know of some cold ferment pinots, but that is not to say that cold ferment is preferred.