Wine additives

[termini]

I am trying to start Dandelion wine from scratch, and I am pouring over 30 recipies that I got on Jack Keller's site.
What is the purpose of Tanin and Peptic enzyme, and what does it do during production?
I bought some tanin just to have on hand but do not have Peptic anyways.
Also, I have it designed to be just about 7 gallons and was wondering if I should add one more packet of the d-47 yeast because I thought I read that a packet will do UP to 5 gallons,( or will it just take a little longer to populate?)for reference, I like sweet wines so I am hoping for it to lean that way when its done.

 

[termini]

I might as well the other specs on what I have so far so I can get feed back. If the moderators at this point want to kick this over another catagory, that's cool too.
I have 7 gallons
added just over 1/4 tsp. k-meta,
with 14 pounds, 4 cups of sugar
2 pounds of golden raisins
S.G right now at 1.110 @76 degrees
We are shooting for a sweeter wine , rather than dry, at the end.


I was going to add 2 cans of white grape concentrate( with out the water) at the time I add the yeast ( too much sugary stuff, or will it help add body?)
and yeast nutrient with Lalvin d-47 yeast.--(Is 1 pack enough for 7 gallons?)
Bentonite
Am I adding too much stuff?
Do I also need tanin?( like my post before , what does this do?)


Remember , I am a newby and I have to fight my fathers genes of " if a little works, alots even better"

 

[Wade E]

Tannin is to add body and in your case if you want the added body I would do that since you already have a high starting SG. I dont think you want to add the grape concentrate as that will up your SG even more due to the additional sugars. Pectic Enzyme should be added to help break down any pectins in the fruit or flower and prevent a pectin haze which makes clearing a wine nearly impossible. Did you really get 14 lbs of Dandellions for this batch? The raisins you added will also give it body.

Edited by: wade

 

[Wade E]

I see a problem though as that yeast you are going to use is rated for 15% abv and you will ferment dry even at that high SG. I would go with a lower tolerance yeast like Red Star Montrachet or dilute this batch down as that will be very harsh with 15% abv. I would also go with 2 packets at 7 gallons to be safe.

Edited by: wade

 

[termini]

Thanks! It is Sunday evening, and I am wondering how long the sugar/ dandelion mixture( with 1/4 tsp. of k-meta) will hold up if I do not start up the process. I will first have to find a place close enough to get some onTuesday evening.
I have two yeasts in my posession, Lalvin d-47 and 71B-1122.
I was going to use the D-47 because I thought that in a response to an earlier forum, the answer was given that it might have a lower tolerance for alcohol---(I also posted a yeast question on the YEAST forum).--But it was also suggested the I should use the Montrachet, if given first choice.
So, could the must sit for a while?

 

[grapeman]

I would use the 1122 yeast and get it started. That yeast is good for light flavored wines like this and only goes to about 14% just like the D-47.
http://www.lalvinyeast.com/strains.asp

 

[Wade E]

Personally I think 14% for a Dandelion would be very strong. Do you have the means of chilling this down to stop fermentation early, say around an SG of 1.010 or there abouts, it would require a decent size fridge or you wont be drinking this for a long time as this will be rocket fuel for such a delicate wine. I just believe that 14% for a Dandelion wine is way to high but its your wine. I would strive for 11 or 12% tops.

 

[touchtoomuch]

I agree with wade. I have read to keep the alc to 11 - 12 tops as well. Dandelion wine doesn't have much body since it is a flower. You added raisins and that would help. Adding the grape concentrate would have been a good thing, but like wade says that will just increase your SG and it will really be hot now. My suggestion would be if you have time, pick some more dandelions and make a slightly bigger batch. Maybe shoot for 8 gallons instead of 7. Then add the extra ingredients except sugar, then check your SG. Now is the time to fix it. If you pick some extra tomorrow and do this you can then pitch your D47 yeast ( two packets). I have never done it, but maybe you can add another packet of yeast tuesday if you dont have an extra on hand. My suggestion would be to make a starter with the yeast to build up the colony before pitching it. As far as having the wine sweet, it will ferment to dryness. But you can sorbate it and sweeten it after it has cleared and aged. that is the only way to get the desired sweeteness that you like and one doesn't need to worry about how much sugar to add at the start to make it sweet hoping the yeast will die out at the time you expect it too. Hope i didn't babble to where you didn't understand. If you dont understand something let me know....

 

[termini]

Boy, I hope other people are monitoring this and can see how two moderators ( Wade and Appleman) (and others) can electronically put the "warm hand "on the shoulder and guide a newbie through this stuff. Thanks alot guys, I mean it.


Now, I will try and practice what I preach when mentoring floatplane mechanics, there is always a plan"B".Chuck Yeager is quoted as saying and teaching to "always leave yourself a way out".


So, what would you guys think of this: as long as I am already at 7 gallons, should I maybe split the batch by watering it down to a lower S.G. and start 2 batches at 5 or 6 gallons each( whatever volume I end up when I dilute it to a targeted S.G.)This way, I could go down two paths using different yeasts and additives or sweetness and compare them at the end. Or is it too much of a gamble with the hard work it took to pick and prepare this set up?
If not advised to do that, would the next step be to somehow monitor the S.G., and when it got to a target number, which I imagine would correlate toa certain alcohol content, could I then add potass. sorbate to shut down fermentation at that point?( I don't have the resources to cool this batch down as suggested)

 

[touchtoomuch]

Temini which recipe did you use? This might help give you a better answer. I really dont think watering it down is the way to go. I think following my suggestions is the way to go, adding the extra ingredients and making making a bigger batch excluding the sugar. I am not sure how much the grape concentrate adds as far as sugar content. I have never monitored it. I can only imagine it is somewhat minor, could be wrong though. Depending on what recipe you used we might be able to give you a decent remedy. please post complete recipe. Also, trying to stop a fermentation using sorbate and sulphites is a gamble. its better to start a must at the desired alc and sweeten later to desired taste. Less chances of mistakes that way... And it always comes out just as you desired!! Edited by: touchtoomuch

 

[termini]

copy that, I'll get on it

 

[termini]

I hope this cut and paste works. This is from the Jack Keller site that I have heard about.I guess he must be famous.......
Of course reading over all the recipies I was tempted to make a "Frankenstien Batch"and bring ingredients from other recipies....which led to my earlier questions about tannin and peptic enzyme( why some use it and some don't .)
I multipied this ingredient listby 7.


The only thing at this point that I changed is the addition of 2 lbs of golden raisins ( total). and I was 'generous' with the 2 qts. of flowers per gallon( semi- tightly packed)
I have not added the orange juice yet, and will not at this time add the white grape juice that I, along with the raisins, grabbed from another recipie.
I will wisely stay in a temporary holding pattern................

<CENTER>
<H3>Dandelion Wine (2)

</H3></CENTER>


<UL>
<LI>2 qts dandelion flowers
<LI>2 lbs 11 ozs granulated sugar
<LI>4 oranges
<LI>1 gallon water
<LI>yeast and nutrient </LI>[/list]



This is the traditional "Midday Dandelion Wine" of old, named because the flowers must be picked at midday when they are fully open. Pick the flowers and bring into the kitchen. Set one gallon of water to boil. While it heats up to a boil, remove as much of the green material from the flower heads as possible (the original recipe calls for two quarts of petals only, but this will work as long as you end up with two quarts of prepared flowers). Pour the boiling water over the flowers, cover with cloth, and leave to seep for two days. Do not exceed two days. Pour the mixture back into a pot and bring to a boil. Add the peelings from the four oranges (again, no white pith) and boil for ten minutes. Strain through a muslin cloth or bag onto acrock or plastic pail containing the sugar, stirring to dissolve. ** ON HOLD** When cool, add the juice of the oranges, the yeast and yeast nutrient. Pour into secondary fermentation vessel, fit fermentation trap, and allow to ferment completely. Rack and bottle when wine clears. Again, allow it to age six months in the bottle before tasting, but a year will improve it vastly. This wine has less body than the first recipe produces, but every bit as much flavor (some say more!). [Adapted recipe from C.J.J. Berry's First Steps in Winemaking]

 

[touchtoomuch]

Well, by looking at most of the recipes it looks like the 2 qts of dandelion flowers are on the lower side of what most of them call for. So, with that in mind, i would be reluctant to water down too much. I am only going to suggest this option mainly because I like to be precise and not throw something together and hope and pray. The one I would do is add more water till your SG is at 11 %, then add more dandelions based on the amount of water you added, you will then need to add more oranges to your recipe. I would check your acid content if you have the equipment to do so. I found that the acid content of dandelion wines are low and acid blend will need to be added to get it to .6 TA.......Make sure you test the acid content after adding the orange juice. It adds to the TA. I dont think after adding the raisins that I would add the grape concentrate. I probably would have used the grape concentrate over the raisins mainlybecause of thedifferences that the flavors impart, but its too late to change that, but it will be ok. After this is done add the appropriate extra sulphites for the extra water additions.... I hope I haven't missed anything. Any questions ask. You could split the batch up once you have adjusted the must and use different yeasts. I guess that would be your call depending upon the ending gallons of must and your warehouse of carboys.. LoL.... Oh and by the way if you haven't noticed, adding raisins raises your SG. They do have a little sugar in them.. This is sometimes a mistake people make that sends them over there SG mark by adjusting their SG and then adding the raisins.... FYI... Hope this helps...

 

[touchtoomuch]

Dont forget to add extra nutrient too. I forgot that...LOL

 

[touchtoomuch]

I wouldn't worry too much about adding the extra additions without boiling them like the recipe calls for. Just my thoughts. This would make it a little easier for you to adjust and I dont think it will make any difference. at least to my knowledge anyhow....

 

[Wade E]

I totally agree with Touch and say get some more dandy's and turn this into a bigger batch, watering it down will just turn it into a lot of weak flavored wine. Get more flowers and keep what you have cool for now by putting the bucket into a cold bath like maybe in the bathtub with nice cold water. Try to start off with an SG of 1.080 for most fruit wines and then sweeten back after fermentation is complete and wine is stabilized. Trying to stop a fermentation with k-meta and sorbate would require high doses of k-meta that I wouldnt recommend to anyone. These 2 ingredients are made to prevent refermentation, not to stop an ongoing fermentation. With as much work as you have put into gathering that many dandy's, I would gather more and go for a slightly bigger batch without adding anymore sugar, just water,acid blend, nutrient, energizer, tannin, and yeast.

 

[termini]

O.K. I will try that and update with the results ( unless you feel a large explosion and see a smoking hole---that would be me)
I don't have a way to test for acidity, but I will procede with the dilution down to 11%, note the amout of water it took to do so, and then working backwards, adjust the orange and dandelion mix to come up to that.
What do the oranges do? are they there for body/ flavor, or do they do something else also?
Wade or Appleman also suggested that the addition of tannin could't hurt....
Is there a guideline as to how much nutrient per gallon? I see I have the Fermaid-k brand---but only have about 8 grams of that--so I suppose I'll have to hunt up some more.( could I add the remainder a little later after starting fermentation, or is it needed to kick start the reaction?)
I'm guessing that most of the experienced members out there have basements stocked with supplies that look alot like the place I will be going to get this stuff!!!!
So here I go.. well, I think I'll wait till morning so I can sit up all night trying to figure how I can disguise a walk in the alfalfa field with my wife and puppies into yet another flower gathering mission.................remember, if this doesn't work, look for the smoking crater....


Just saw that Wade backed up Touch's suggestions. THANKS and I will shoot for that 11% or 1.080 range....Edited by: termini

 

[Wade E]

Most nutrient is added at the rate of 1 tsp. per gallon of wie and energizer at the rate of 1/2 tsp. per gallon. I would probably add 2 1/2 qrts more of the Dandy's and water down to reach SG.

 

[termini]

So there is a difference between nutrient and energizer......
will I be o.k adding the nutrient and energizer a day later, or wait until I have it all in front of me?
Also, I only have 1 primary bucket but also have the taller one with the spigot on it for bottling. if I can find a cover for it, I will use that, but would there be a problem if I just covered the second bucket with a cloth?
I also have 2- 6 gallon carboys. other the the cleanup, could I ferment the overflow batch in that?


Off to the alfalfa field to pick more flowers...." Hey honey, lets go for a walk, oh, and lets bring an icecream bucket with us......."Edited by: termini

 

[Wade E]

Most wine makers dont cover their buckets with the lid in the first few days as 02 is a very good thing at this stage. You can ferment in any food grade bucket or glass there is as long as you leave room fro fermentation so you dont over flow. Cheese cloth or something like that is good as long as it doesnt touch the wine and is good enough to keep crawlies out of there. You can add the nutrienta a day or so later but dont wait too long as we dont want to stress the yeast if there is insufficient nutrients in there as that would cause off flavors and smells..