What am I doing wrong here?

[Autolycus]

So, I make elderflower wine each year, mostly to save money on drink, so I'm not hugely fussy about the taste.
This year, I decided at the last minute to have a go at making sparkling wine with one batch.
However, the yeast just settled right to the bottom and there is no fizz at all. I only recently got a hydrometer, so I don't have readings from the beginning of the batch, but I always just let it ferment until it stops.
I assumed, it would be too strong for yeast to survive, so I tried a high tolerance yeast, to no avail.
So...How do I stop the fermentation without preventing further fermentation? Or is it just a matter of tweaking the recipe and putting in less sugar so the first lot of yeast dies off early and when I introduce more sugar and yeast after the final racking and filtering, the new yeast have an environment they can tolerate?
I don't recall the exact recipe, but I believe it was 5.5kilos (or pounds?) of sugar. Is there any way I can guestimate how to end up with a starting wine of the right alcoholitude? If the original recipe were designed to have just enough sugar for the yeast to live long enough to die of alcohol, I suppose that would be quite easy, but I dunno if it was designed so some sugar would remain after the yeast had popped its clogs.
Is this just a trial and error thing? Is there a way to work out the adjustment I need to make now, before I start the next batch? Or do I need to have a guess on the next batch and record the hydrometer readings so I can work out what adjustment, if any, is needed on the batch after that? Suppose I just brew to full strength then add extra water along with the new yeast and sugar? Just enough to bring the alcoholicity down to where the new yeast can survive? The yeast I bought for this says on the packet that it can survive up to 18% abv, but I guess they don't like being dumped straight into something at 13% or so right away?
Could I just brew the wine to full strength and start the yeast off in a separate container with a weakened version of the wine?
It seems a shame to have paid for bottles that can take the pressure of sparkling wine, and just keep making flat stuff.

 

[richmke]

Did you add potassium sorbate?

Did you add the sugar during bottling?

Basically, you ferment to dry (like you always do). Do not add k-sorbate. When you are ready to bottle, you add some sugar, and cork the bottle. The yeast will then ferment the sugar and carbonize the wine. If you add enough sugar, it will also expel the cork, so use champagne bottles to keep the cork on. If you like your wine sweeter, then there are some complicated processes. The easiest is to add some simple syrup (sugar water) right before you drink it.

 

[Autolycus]

That's exactly what I did. I added nothing once the wine was done fermenting. I just mixed up the extra sugar and yeast in some water, gave it a day or two to get going, then dumped it into the wine before bottling. Should I have left it longer before bottling it, maybe?

 

[richmke]

You add sugar and bottle immediately. Then the CO2 produced is trapped in the bottle and carbonizes the wine.

 

[BernardSmith]

I think we need more detailed information. Can you tell us the volume of wine you made and the actual amount of sugar you fermented. Five and half kilo is twice the amount of 5.5 lbs. - so that would be a BIG difference. What yeast did you use? How long did you allow the wine to ferment before bottling? How much sugar did you add to carbonate the wine? How long did you let the yeast ferment THAT sugar before you corked the bottles? How long has it been since you bottled your wine?

 

[Autolycus]

Okay, I made 5 gallons. The recipe called for 5.5Kg of Sugar. Not sure what yeast I used at that point. It was just a sachet of general purpose stuff. The yeast I added before bottling was Lalvin EC-1118.
The wine was fermenting for a few months, but it was pretty much inactive for the last few weeks, and seemed to have finished.
Not sure how much sugar I added before bottling, bug I Googled it at the time and went with something near the high end of what was recommended for that quantity,
Once the wine was racked the last time and filtered, I mixed the Lalvin yeast and this sugar with some water, but only left it for a day or maybe two before bottling. I'm thinking that might have been the problem.
I bottled the wine a few months ago. Definitely more than 2, and probably 3 or more. But the yeast sank very quickly and the wine above it was clear, so I think it was dead.

 

[richmke]

5.5kg of sugar for 5 gallons provides 15% of potential alcohol. The fruit would add some more.

That should be within the 18% limit of EC-1118.

I mixed the Lalvin yeast and this sugar with some water

That is a problem. The yeast will have a problem with that high sugar content. But, it then got diluted in the bottle, and the yeast in the bottle should have been ok.

If you see lees in the bottle, and presuming you racked clear wine into the bottle, then something happened. Assuming you had a good seal on the bottle, you should have carbonated wine. For beer, a few weeks is all you need (but beer has lower alcohol). With your level of alcohol, a few months should do it. Measure the SG of a bottle of wine. If it is below 1.000, then the yeast converted all the sugar.

Get a vinometer. If your wine is anywhere close to 18% (SG needs to be below 1.000 for the vinometer), then you might not be able to carbonate in the bottle.

 

[Autolycus]

Oh, no, the 5.5kg is the sugar in the original recipe. The sugar I mixed the yeast with to add before bottle was way less. I don't remember the exact amount.
Hmm...I though general purpose yeast died off at around 13% no matter how much sugar you used?
It may then be that the alcohol was just too high. Thing is...it just doesn't TASTE or FEEL like wine that's any higher than around 11-13%
I guess I'll just have to keep an eye on the next batch and maybe make a nice little line graph.
So...to get a starting wine that isn't so alcoholificated, I just use less sugar at the beginning? Once I've done that once, while monitoring the alcohol content from start to finish, I guess I'll be able to make any adjustments after that?
Sorry for all the questions. I've never really studied all this stuff. It's just about getting drunk for less money

 

[richmke]

Oh, no, the 5.5kg is the sugar in the original recipe. The sugar I mixed the yeast with to add before bottle was way less. I don't remember the exact amount.

You probably made a saturated solution of sugar water. If you add yeast to just that, the yeast will have a fit.

So the yeast you originally fermented with is a different yeast? Maybe it could not stand the alcohol.

The puzzling thing is that there is yeast in your bottle. The only way to get that is if the yeast consumed the sugar in the bottle, and then it should have carbonated the bottle.

What did you seal the bottles with?
What is the current SG of wine from a bottle?

 

[Autolycus]

No, it fermented away quite nicely. The original yeast was general purpose stuff from the cheapie store's home-brew section. I let that ferment until it stopped. THEN, after fining the wine and filtering it, I added the Lalvin yeast and however much sugar it was to a separate vessel with some of the wine in. I left it in here for a day or maybe two, THEN put it into the main batch and immediately bottled. I'm using plastic stoppers tied down with wire cages. Pretty sure they're air tight.
So yeah, the yeast in the bottles is there because I put it there, but when I put it there, it wasn't dead.I'm pretty sure it died the same day it was added, so I guess the wine is too strong. Or...too acidic? I do quite like to add quite a lot of citric acid. I believe I used 150g for the 23 liters. The original recipe called for 75g, but I like sharp wine, so I figured I'd try a bit more.

 

[richmke]

If you mixed the sugar/yeast into clarified wine, then you should not be able to see the yeast at the time of bottling.

If you now see yeast sediment, then it came from the yeast fermenting the added sugar after bottling.

How much sugar did you add? About 2 tsp of sugar per 750 ml bottle of wine is the equivalent of what is used for Beer.

 

[Autolycus]

Off the top of my head I think it came to something like 60g for the 5 gallons. I never saw yeast in the bottles at first. But within 24 hours there was sediment on the bottom, so I think the yeast totally died a death.

 

[BernardSmith]

The fact that you saw sediment at the bottom of the bottles does not, I think, mean the yeast had died. You can harvest the slurry (or cake as brewers call the sediment at the bottom), wash it and reuse it for another batch - and indeed that is the preferred method of making Skeeter Pee. But that said, I think your problem was that you primed the wine with the additional sugar and yeast and then left the sugar to ferment out a day or more before bottling. If you added about 60 g of sugar AND EC-1118 then that sugar might have been converted to alcohol long before you bottled the wine. You need to add the sugar moments before you bottle because what you want to happen is for ALL the CO2 that the yeast produces to be trapped IN THE BOTTLES. If you don't keep all the CO2 that the yeast produces then your wine won't be "sparkling". If I prime cider (I haven't primed elderflower wine yet) I add the sugar solution to the bottling bucket and immediately bottle (ditto when I make beer). You want the yeast to do all its work inside the bottle. It's the pressure that the capped bottle puts on the CO2 that when released makes for the fizziness.

 

[richmke]

Off the top of my head I think it came to something like 60g for the 5 gallons.

60g is 1/4 cup, or 12 teaspoons. 5 gallons is about 25 bottles, or 1/2 teaspoon per bottle. Plus, you lost some during the first day before your bottled.

I think you want to be closer to 2-3 teaspoons per 750 ml bottle.

 

[Autolycus]

The 60g is just a figure that popped into my head. I'm not sure it's what I used. But I weighed it and it sure looked more than 1/4 cup. Closer to a whole cup. I didn't know that yeast settled to the bottom so fast, but that's not the only reason I figured it was dead. The lack of fizz is what makes me think that.
I never knew you were supposed to bottle right away. I'd read somewhere that the shock of being dumped into strong alcohol kills it, so I figured giving it a day or two in a slightly weaker solution would be better. Guess I was totally wrong.
So, I guess I don't know what to fix cus I can't know what broke...Hmmm. I'll just have to keep track of everything next time so if it doesn't work I can see where I screwed up.
On a positive note...I've drunk a few crates of this flat "sparkling" wine and suffered no ill effects. It's a lot easier getting the sediment out without all the extra pressure.

 

[richmke]

So, I guess I don't know what to fix cus I can't know what broke.

Take the SG of a bottle. If it is below 1.000, then it fermented to dry.

If it is dry, then get a vinometer, and measure the alcohol level. If it is below 16%, then you have room to carbonate.

If you have room to carbonate, mix a solution of sugar water (equal amounts of water and sugar). I am guessing you want about 1.5 cups of sugar for 5 gallons. You can also dissolve it in a bottle of wine.

Divide the solution by the number of bottles you have. Open each bottle, remove that amount of wine, and add the sugar solution. Recork.

If you want to remove the sediment after carbonation, there is something about:

Invert the bottles while fermenting.
Wait for the yeast to ferment the sugar and carbonate the bottle (1-2 months?)
Freeze the neck of the bottle (invert into a bucket of slushy salt water?)
Uncork the bottle, and remove the sediment.

Something about the ice making a plug that keeps the carbonation in.

 

[Autolycus]

Can someone clarify a few things, please?

Oops. Posted in the wrong place