Vintners Best Elderberry fruit wine base

[winemaker81]

It's been over a month since feeding the elderberry with sugar ... SG finally dropped to 1.002. It's been like that a week or more, doesn't look like it's going down.

So I added another 3 cups of sugar, SG is up to 1.030. I'm going to ignore it for 3 weeks and then check SG. The yeast should easily ferment out to dryness, but this one is not doing anything like I expected. I suspect it has to do with this being a juice blend, and not just a fruit concentrate.

30+ years ago I did a few batches from Welch's frozen grape juice and one from Oceanspray Cranraspberry ... none of which fermented cleanly. I was fermenting commercial drinks, so normal reactions are not to be expected. This one seems to be in the same model.

The wine smells good and taste fine, and I expect both the regular and fortified wines will turn out acceptable. However, I don't believe I'll buy this product again.

 

[Scooter68]

Sorry to hear the wine is foot dragging on ya. Have you checked the pH on it? Normally there no point to that since it is affected by the co2 presence but... it might be interesting to see where it's at now - Just for grins. If it's high (Above 3.5) I might be a bit concerned but unless it's high or really really low (below 2.8) I wouldn't worry.

 

[Stressbaby]

I did with my elderberry port last year basically what you're doing now. I started at 1.085, step fed to 1.030 twice, the first time at 1.004 and the second at something close to 1.000 (didn't write that number down). I used K1-V1116 which has an alcohol tolerance higher than your Red Star Premier Rouge. It stopped at 1.014, 3.6% RS. It's really good.

All of which is just to say, don't assume it will ferment dry. My money says that it won't, but it will still be really good.

 

[winemaker81]

Scooter68, I haven't tested pH nor acid in YEARS. I've been doing kits (other than a few fruit wines) for many years so there's been no point. Funny, I found my acid test kit (stored where it didn't belong) just before reading your post. I stopped in at my local supply store today but they were out of pH test strips.

I'm taking this as a sign to not bother -- for now. I'm going to give it 3 weeks without checking it to see what happens. At that point, my shop will have more test strips in and if things have not progressed to my satisfaction, I'm taking your advice and checking.

Dave Bagley, owner of Poplar Ridge Winery in NY, told me the the most important thing a winemaker can do is to exercise "benign neglect". (this is paraphrased from nearly 30 years ago). He (more or less) said that nature does its thing -- man just guides and corrects, but it's best to leave it alone. I'm fighting my urge (and recent practice) to watch the wine. I'm going to let it do its thing. If nothing else, I may regain a bit of sanity.

I'm moving my site to a new one, a CMS. While transferring my logs of the 80's, I am astounded how many times I touched some wines. My later practice (after talking to Dave) was to leave things along. The old racking schedule of "1 week, 3 weeks, 3 months" does work. I need to practice something like that with this wine.

 

[winemaker81]

Stressbaby, I'm not expecting the wine to ferment to dryness. The part I'm not feeding hasn't dropped below 1.000, and the "fed" part didn't either. You may be right -- this may be elderberry, not the product. So I'm not a taker for your bet.

At this last feeding I did it without caring if it fermented dry. Once the fermentation stabilizes, I'll add sorbate + sulfite. If it's dry, I'm going to sweeten it anyway, so I'm in a no-lose situation.

I'd like it to ferment dry so I can fully control how much I sweeten .... but it's going to do what it does. Based upon the current tasting, I'm expecting it will produce an acceptable result, regardless of what the wine decides to do. Unless it goes bad, I'll be satisfied with the result.

 

[Scooter68]

I agree that hovering over a batch of wine can lead to meddling with the process and bad results.

My point is when things appear to be going awry, THEN it's appropriate to take measurements to determine what is going on. As to pH strips, used them once and got rid of them - I now use a digital pH meter. Fruit wines like Blackberry, Blueberry, Cherry etc are virtually impossible to measure with pH strip.

I don't do kits or grape based wine ONLY Fruit and for the most part I try to use only fresh fruit with few exceptions for those fruits I cannot buy or pick fresh - Those are the only wine varieties I do.

As you mentioned - that particular vendors products are blends (That's reason I don't use their products) and they are concentrates that you have to dilute before using, so there's no way of knowing 100% the starting pH or TA without a measurement after you have diluted and added any sugar or other additives to the must. Personally I like to know where things sit before I start the process. I don't measure pH during the ferment unless there is an issue and fermentation stops, then I measure everything I can to find out why, rather than leave it to chance.

 

[winemaker81]

I checked SG ... absolutely NO activity. I suspect I overwhelmed the yeast with too much sugar -- I probably should have fed it, 1 cup sugar at a time.

I racked Batch #1 (the portion I'm doing per package directions) this morning, and dropped the sludge from that into the one I'm feeding (Batch #2). I don't know if it will help, but don't expect it will hurt.

At this point I'm going to try jump starting it again with another package of yeast. I appreciate suggestions on what yeast to try.

If I can't get the fermentation started I'm going to punt -- do the calculation for adding sufficient brandy to jack it to 18%. Call me stubborn, I'm going to get what I want, regardless of what it takes!

 

[kyle5434]

If you're going to back-sweeten, maybe 71B, to help bring out the fruitiness? Otherwise for dry I like RC212 with elderberry.

 

[winemaker81]

My intention was to ferment to dry, then sweeten to taste. However, at this point, if I can get it to ferment at all, I'm good.

I want to get the alcohol up so that it resembles a port, but as I said above, I have alternatives I can use. SG 1.032 is sweeter than I want ... but if it won't ferment, I will live with what I have.

 

[Scooter68]

Any chance of starting another batch with a difference juice source?

All this talk just pushed me over the edge and I just now ordered a Can of Vintner's Harvest Elderberry wine base. I'll make a 3 gallon batch to make sure I get full flavor.
I use Vintner's Harvest when I can't get the fruit locally and this brand also because it's 100% the type juice on the label. (Found on Amazon just now for $32.95 and free shipping)

Perhaps making a 3 gallon batch and fermenting it totally dry with a lower ABV would let you blend the two batchs to increase flavor, lower the ABV and reduce the sweetness.

 

[winemaker81]

Scooter68, excellent idea! This gives me yet another option.

Unfortunately, I don't want that much elderberry port -- have most of a 2016 Orange Chocolate Port, just bottled a Black Forest Port, and have a Coffee Port to start. Yes, I went a bit off the deep end on dessert wines!

However, if I can't get this one to unstick itself, I will probably do that, make small batch #3. I'll use as much of #3 as necessary to get the residual sugar down to what I want, then bottle the remainder of #3 as an off dry.

BTW: I tasted Batch #1 when I racked this morning -- I'm very pleased with the flavor and nose, even when green and dry. I'm going to sweeten this one just slightly, leaving it just off-dry.

Although I've spoken against this product, the main batch made according to directions is turning out fine. Just had a thought -- now I want to buy the Vintner's Harvest that Scooter mentioned, as I want to make that and compare it against my Batch #1. But I need to hold off -- I have two 3.5 gallon carboys, with elderberry in both. Once I move one out, I have the Coffee Port to start. So I need to wait until I bottle ...

Another BTW: I need a couple more gallon jugs. So I'm going to buy a gallon of California red and of white, and move that wine into screwcap 750 ml bottles. I use inexpensive wine for cooking and can always use basic white and red.

 

[Scooter68]

Buy more Carboys

 

[winemaker81]

At one point I had two 13 gallon, two 6 gallon, two 3.5 gallon, and fifteen five gallon carboys. I made FAR too much wine .... but when young and single, ya do what ya want.

All jokes aside, five 5's and two 3.5's is right for my space. It also forces me to space things out, so I have something to do more often. Today I need to add chitosan to a batch ... then I won't touch anything until after Thanksgiving.

Well, nothing to do other than getting the Batch #2 unstuck, if that's possible.

 

[Scooter68]

Here's a hypothetical question - A neighbor thinks you are running a wine making business out of your home. Not being your "Friend" they contact "the local authorities" whomever that might be.

So the limit on wine making is 200 gallons a year by federal law and in most states *
You have 150 gallons total bulk aging, 20 gallons in active fermentation, and 350 bottles finished, labeled and on the shelf.

What would the ATF folks do? Even with labels showing dating back 2-4 years will they go after someone.
Just a question about what authorities in the ATF realm would do. I guess the greatest danger would be state or local people on a power-trip and up-for an election soon would be the most likely to try to make a case.


No I don't know anyone with that much wine and certainly that's not me - I have about 94 bottles on the shelf dating back 2 years at most (Anything older has been consumed) and I have 12 gallons total aging. Sadly nothing fermenting at present.


* Did find a couple of strange exceptions to the 200 gallon per household (Or 100gallon if only one person resides there)
Alabama - Limit of 5 gallons in possession
Virginia - Can't give more than 72 ozs to anyone in a year

 

[cmason1957]

They will probably show up and ask you to prove that you haven't exceeded the 200 gallons per year. Never, ever do anything that looks in any way, shape or form like someone paid you for alcohol. Keep records of when you pitched yeast for each batch, how big each batch was.

 

[Scooter68]

I've been offered one donation to my hobby in 3 plus years. I just give it to friends, family and the occasion worker (repariman) who shows up does a good job on something around the place. Most seem to feel that's pretty good tip.

 

[winemaker81]

Most folks are happy to get a bottle. Had one person who was bound and determined they were going to pay me for the bottle. I took it back, while explaining what bootlegging is. They haven't talked to me since, so I call that one a win.

My records are on my web site, so I have evidence of production levels. But I also mark far less than the 200 gallons/year. Most I did was 90 gallons in a year, and that was late 80's. Now days, 40 gallons is my max.

 

[winemaker81]

My local supply store owner had no good ideas for jump starting Batch #2. So I purchased another package of EC-1118, and rehydrated it in warm water and a teaspoon of sugar. Once it was foaming nicely, I added it to the carboy. That was last night -- I have some evidence of movement -- I'll check the SG in a few days to see if it budged. If I get any movement, I'll call it a win.

 

[Scooter68]

Good luck to ya.

My order of Elderberry wine Base is supposed to arrive Wednesday or Thursday.

 

[ASR]

Here's a hypothetical question - A neighbor thinks you are running a wine making business out of your home. Not being your "Friend" they contact "the local authorities" whomever that might be.

So the limit on wine making is 200 gallons a year by federal law and in most states *
You have 150 gallons total bulk aging, 20 gallons in active fermentation, and 350 bottles finished, labeled and on the shelf.

What would the ATF folks do? Even with labels showing dating back 2-4 years will they go after someone.
Just a question about what authorities in the ATF realm would do. I guess the greatest danger would be state or local people on a power-trip and up-for an election soon would be the most likely to try to make a case.


No I don't know anyone with that much wine and certainly that's not me - I have about 94 bottles on the shelf dating back 2 years at most (Anything older has been consumed) and I have 12 gallons total aging. Sadly nothing fermenting at present.


* Did find a couple of strange exceptions to the 200 gallon per household (Or 100gallon if only one person resides there)
Alabama - Limit of 5 gallons in possession
Virginia - Can't give more than 72 ozs to anyone in a year

Since it's hypothetical, let's assume I have a nice, neat, organized and indexed set of records. For every batch I record all the key dates especially when I start and how big the batch is. Then when I bottle I annotate how many bottles I got from that batch and have the date on each label. For batches in production I have a tag on each carboy with start date and some other key dates. I don't have a list of who I give bottles to, but then I have never been close to the 200 gallon limit (thats roughly 1000 standard bottles). Unless there is something that just doesn't look right most government folks are going to be looking for some sort of CONSISTENT record keeping. Having several hundred-gallon stainless steel tanks, regular deliveries of pallets of bottles, high-pressure steam cleaners, and a couple of 'buddies' hanging out in white jump suits, hair nets, etc is likely going to tip them off......