Vino Superiore (www.vinosuperiore.com)

[SpecificGravity]

I am in the process of fermenting grapes from Italy and I can tell you that these are the best frozen premium grapes I have seen yet. It is called Vino Superiore and there are 5 varietals that were brought in this year. Here is the website to my fellow winemakers just incase anyone is interested in purchasing and trying it out.

 

[Rocky]

SG, I will follow this with great interest. First thought is that it seems rather pricey, something over $50 per gallon. How much are you making and what varietal(s) did you choose?

 

[SpecificGravity]

Hmmmm....$50 per gallon. One bucket was around $155 dollars and is 5 gallons of must. I use enzymes and so I should get out 3.5-4 gallons of wine. So i guess if you look at it that way, maybe pricey relative to juice... but they are all DOCG and certified organic grapes from Tuscany.

Keystonehomebrew is also offering discounts for multiple bucket purchases.. I think the price is cheaper than peter brehm stuff for the same quality, if not better. I do make brehm grapes and have had good success. This year I am making 2 barrels from Vino Superiore grapes. 1 Modern Chianti blend (sangio, merlot, cab) and 1 Super Tuscan (can, merlot, sangio).

Did you check out the videos on the website?

 

[robie]

Is is pretty hard to get more than 3.5 gallons from 5 gallons of must, but I guess it can be done if you really squeeze 'um.

Strange that their whites also come in grape form and not just juice. Seems a waste to transport something that will immediately get pressed off. There are some wine makers, especially in Italy, who still ferment whites on the skins, but that doesn't happen very often anymore.

That is pretty pricie, but if the quality is there, it might be a good choice. Or you could pay $1.90 a pound for Zinfandel grapes from a supposedly good source and get pure c**p, like I have done in the past.

The wine will never be better than the grapes they are made from. Getting good grapes is sometimes a real challenge.

 

[SpecificGravity]

The wine will never be better than the grapes they are made from. Getting good grapes is sometimes a real challenge.

This is a perfect statement!!! Well said Sir..

That is exaclty right.. That was the reason for the purchase.

I noticed the white. According to the presentation, that varietal was brought in like that so that you can co-ferment to make a traditional chianti blend. In the traditional chianti wine, trebbiano and colorino was added to sangiovese during fermentation.

 

[Rocky]

Hmmmm....$50 per gallon. One bucket was around $155 dollars and is 5 gallons of must. I use enzymes and so I should get out 3.5-4 gallons of wine. So i guess if you look at it that way, maybe pricey relative to juice... but they are all DOCG and certified organic grapes from Tuscany.

You will have to forgive my naivete. I was only going by the information on their website, to wit: "Each 5 gallon bucket of grape must, including the white grape must, contains skins and seeds along with the juice, and will yield approximately 3 gallons of finished wine." Silly me.

But I suppose that it is just as accurate as their claim that, "These are authentic, certified organic DOCG grapes from the heart of Chianti, Italy, carefully selected by a commercially certified enologist with more than 15 years of winemaking experience. The designation “DOCG” stands for Denominazione di Origine Controllata e Garantita, the strictest and most prestigious designation of origin and quality for Italian wines." Very interesting statement, half inaccurate, half accurate. Grapes are not designated DOCG, wines are, and only prior to bottling after they have been analyzed and tasted by Italian Government licensed personnel. Just how someone can attach the DOCG designation to must before it is wine is a mystery to me. While some of these grapes are used in wines that can attain the DOCG designation, e.g. Sangiovese in Chianti and Brunello, all of them are used in wines that are not DOCGs.

While it is arguable that "a wine cannot be better than the grapes" that go into it, having "high quality" grapes does not guarantee good wine either. We can agree to disagree on this, but I think it is a lot of money for a boatride.

 

[Wade E]

Sorry, Im with Rocky on this. Thats a lot of money for 3 gallons and pressing hard to achieve more juice will just extract nasty tannins. Have you ever tried Brehm grapes?

 

[robie]

Wow, folks! We are getting into an area where only one's own personal opinions can speak.

Grapes are not designated DOCG, wines are, and only prior to bottling after they have been analyzed and tasted by Italian Government licensed personnel.

You can't put even the best of grapes from, say France, in an Italian DOCG-rated wine regardless of how it tastes, so the grapes ARE a DOCG factor. A few years ago Itallian makers of Brunello wines got into serious trouble putting "other" grapes into their Brunellos. I think they might have handed down some jail time over it, but I can't say for sure.

While it is arguable that "a wine cannot be better than the grapes" that go into it, having "high quality" grapes does not guarantee good wine either. We can agree to disagree on this, but I think it is a lot of money for a boatride.

True, you can make a bad wine from good grapes, but you can't make a great wine from bad grapes. You can zest a wine from c**ppie grapes or add anything else to it until h**l freezes over and it will still not be a great (or even a good) wine... it might get better, but it will never be great.

Many new home wine makers start out with the same old question, "What equivalent commercial price range of wine can I make from a wine kit?".
The answer is of course that the better the kit, the better the "potential" results, IF the wine makers knows what he/she is doing.

For that matter, the same question can be asked of wines made from fresh/frozen grapes. The answer is pretty much the same as for kits - higher quality grapes can produce better wine.

One would have to ask why the Italians are selling these "extra special" grapes, instead of making $50 bottles of wine from them. The same question can be asked about Brehm Frozen Grapes, which can be as much as $275 per 5 gallons of red must.

(If vineyards would consider selling you their superior grapes (which of course they won't), if you did purchase grapes that typically make a $50 bottle of wine, how much would you have to pay for 5 gallons of their must?)

For Brehms, in my opinion the answer is - if you really know how to make wine and you have the proper equipment and environment, if the grapes really are extra high quality (cost $150 to $275 for 5 gallons of must), you actually can make the equivalent of a $50 or more bottle of wine.

There are not really any "special tricks" used by top secret wine makers to make the superior wines; it is all know-how and great grapes. Give a good winemaker a bad batch of grapes and he will make you an inferior wine.

What it comes down to is -
Are the grapes really high quality enough to make a superior bottle of wine?
Do I really want to pay enough to make a superior bottle of wine?
Do I really even care to drink superior wines?
Is there even such a thing as superior wine and what is the definition?

The answers are all a matter of personal opinion.

IMO, I would want several references before I pay $150 for 5 gallons of must and I also would need to have a very good reason why I want to make such an expensive wine, which right now I don't.

 

[Rocky]

"Wow, folks! We are getting into an area where only one's own personal opinions can speak."

Robie, I am trying to understand what you mean by this and I cannot.

It is not a "personal opinion" that the DOCG designation pertains to the wine and not to grapes. That is a fact. It is, therefore, at least misleading and more likely false advertising to say that you are selling Sangiovese, Trebbiano, Colorino, Merlot and Cabernet Sauvignon grapes that are "... authentic, certified organic DOCG grapes from the heart of Chianti, Italy, carefully selected by a commercially certified enologist with more than 15 years of winemaking experience." I agree that you can't use grapes from other countries in a DOCG wine. You can't even use grapes from other regions of Italy! In just about every case, only some and not all of the grapes produced by a single vineyard end up making a DOCG wine. (By the way, you mentioned the Brunellopoli scandal and it is somewhat ironic that their "certified enologist" worked for Antinori, one of the wineries implicated in the scandal.)

I did not say thet one could make a "great wine" out of bad grapes. I said that the statement that "the wine is never better than the grapes" is agruable. I think people make decent wine out of poor grapes regularly. There is no doubt that the better the grapes, kit or juice one starts with, the higher the likelihood of a good wine, although that is not necessarily the case.

I too am puzzled as to why the Italians would send their "great grapes" over here when they could turn them into excellent wines and I believe the answer is, they don't.

 

[robie]

Robie, I am trying to understand what you mean by this and I cannot.

It is not a "personal opinion" that the DOCG designation pertains to the wine and not to grapes.

Yep, that does need some clarification. That part was not something subject to an opinion, I should have pointed that out. I was lazy and just didn't want to write two separate posts. It was pretty much all the rest of what I wrote that is opinion-based. Sorry about that!

A DOCG is an specific area and it rules the grapes that can be utilize as a part of the DOCG's wines. You know that, of course. I don't know about Italy specifically, but in some countries, one cannot even grow and market "other" grapes within the DOCG-type area. I believe such rules may vary from DOCG to DOCG, even within the same country. They can get pretty picky, though.

So I don't see their statement as being "terribly" (another relative word) misleading. I think their grapes come from a highly controlled area, but I think what you are saying is that that doesn't mean the ground under every row produces great grapes. I know in Burgundy, when the ground around the vines is well cleared, one can see obvious strips of differing soils, and the quality of grapes coincides with the strips.

I recently read an article about $1000 per bottle wine coming out of Australia. The grapes for this wine came from, if I remember, only two specific rows of a much, much larger vineyard. Go figure.

I did not say thet one could make a "great wine" out of bad grapes. I said that the statement that "the wine is never better than the grapes" is agruable. I think people make decent wine out of poor grapes regularly.

"Decent" and "arguable" are very relative terms, and fall directly under my comment about personal opinion. What does "decent" wine made from poor grapes taste like? Here's my opinion of that - Decent wine from poor grapes is wine I might not pour out, but I wouldn't necessarily share it with my friends. (I have such a batch of fresh grape wine going right now and the jury is still out about keeping it.) It's that cut off point for pouring it out that is very relative.

(By the way, you mentioned the Brunellopoli scandal and it is somewhat ironic that their "certified enologist" worked for Antinori, one of the wineries implicated in the scandal.)

I never heard the outcome of that incident. I wonder if anyone ever really paid the price. I figure their wineries at least had to refund the buyers' money, since they paid big (big!!) bucks for something that was mis-represented.

 

[Rocky]

Robie, we were in Italy in the Fall of 2008 when the "Brunello-gate" scandal was in full swing. I know that Antinori was involved somehow and so was Banfi. I visited and had a few great meals and wine at Le Presi Vineyard in Montalcino and they, of course, were really upset that someone had sullied their wines. They made two wines, Brunello di Montalcino and Rosso di Montalcino, all from Sangiovese grapes grown on Le Presi (which is Italian for the terracing of the vineyard). I am not sure that there ever was a resolution. Knowing the Italians, I think you are right when you say people "paid the price." Probably in Euros to someone in the Government.

 

[SpecificGravity]

Vino Superiore grapes

So.... After all the conspiracy theories that this is a big marketing plot to fool people into paying a premium for grapes, I can now speak from experience. The wine is AMAZING! This is the best wine coming out of MLF that I have ever tasted in my cellar. Numbers are perfect so far.. ph 3.6 TA 6.5, notes of cherry, plum as expected. ABSOLUELTY BEAUTIFUL! They are a bit pricey, but these are definitely competition worthy. Will definitely be purchasing these grapes in the future and will be following this company. I would recommend the same for anyone who wants to make a premium authentic wine at home. Heck... I would even recommend these grapes to wineries. I am expecting to finish malo by the mid of January and then going to barrel. I can let you know more on the progress if you would like..

One other thing, I saw on the website that you can click on the facebook link and see pics and videos that the company is putting up there. They must be making wine with it and positng footage. It was real interesting for me and figured I would relay this to any winemaking academics out there!

Will keep you posted...