Vine ?

Discussion in 'Grape Growing & Vineyard Forum' started by richiev, Feb 7, 2020.

Wine Making Forum

Help Support Winemaking Talk by donating:

  1. Feb 7, 2020 #1

    richiev

    richiev

    richiev

    Junior

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norrthern Illinois
    I have two grapevines growing in my basement. They have been doing very well, but yesterday I noticed a few small holes in two leafs. could someone identify what they might be from ,and what action I might take? P2070015.JPG
     
  2. Feb 7, 2020 #2

    Collie Flowers farm

    Collie Flowers farm

    Collie Flowers farm

    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2020
    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    Hard to say, could be nitrogen or phosphorus deficiency, or just damaged by something.
    Probably just need to keep an eye on them for now rather than try and correct.
    What's the growing medium??
     
  3. Feb 7, 2020 #3

    richiev

    richiev

    richiev

    Junior

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norrthern Illinois
    It's a potting soil that contains, composted manure, peat humus, and perlite.
     
  4. Feb 11, 2020 #4

    efBobby

    efBobby

    efBobby

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2019
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    4
    Gender:
    Male
    What's the plant variety?

    Off hand I do not recognize the pattern on the holes. Perhaps it just got nicked when the leaf was in bud stage?
     
  5. Feb 11, 2020 #5

    richiev

    richiev

    richiev

    Junior

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norrthern Illinois
    Golden Muscato
     
  6. Feb 13, 2020 at 6:02 PM #6

    efBobby

    efBobby

    efBobby

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2019
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    4
    Gender:
    Male
    Hmph, I was thinking it looked like a riparia, lol.

    No further leaf degradation?
     
  7. Feb 14, 2020 at 5:07 PM #7

    richiev

    richiev

    richiev

    Junior

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norrthern Illinois
    P2140118.JPG
    Nothing so far. If I do spot anything, I may spray them with Neem oil. Put them under a grow light, the 1st. of January. Only because all the other dormant plants purchased from Stark Bros. died. Since, I have purchased plants from Double A.Vineyards. These two plants have grown just over 4'. Soon they will out grown my basement ceiling height.
     
  8. Feb 16, 2020 at 2:08 AM #8

    efBobby

    efBobby

    efBobby

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2019
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    4
    Gender:
    Male
    Good to know about the stark bros plants. I been gambling with private parties but with good luck so far.

    Only one that kinda stumbled out of the gate was a dwarf Riesling but it was my fault. It sAt in the packaging for a couple extra days then I put it in my normal grow chamber. I noticed it did poorly and after some reading discovered it is a cool loving grape. So it sat in the cooler chamber for nearly a month with 1 leaf.

    Turns out it was in transplant recovery mode putting down roots like crazy then when it was satisfied started to produce explosive, bushy growth up top.

    Only other one I rcd that was seriously questionable was a set of vines from Portugal. They looked like 3 mummies in a bag. Lol. Apparently when dormant they can survive being dried out a little.

    Took a couple vine cuttings and began my treatments. All the cuttings have foliage and one of the 3 is very close to bud burst. Buds are green and white.

    Other 2 following close behind with light brown fuzzy buds starting to swell.

    I am still in shock they are doing so well! Lol

    Anyway moral of the story if they look suspicious ALWAYS take cuttings even if it's just a 2 node.

    And revive immediately bc there are too many unknowns. How long has it been sitting, what did it get exposed to between origin and destination? Mainly in reference to temp swings bc if it's enough temp swing for the right duration the vine will start to awaken but still look asleep then if you try to put it back into dormancy will most likely end it.

    As to your plight of vines getting too big too soon if there is such a thing. I say take some green cuttings for one to have jic the mother meets trade tragedy and 2 to multiply your interest.

    If you end up with too many, well great time to attempt to trade or sell! In my opinion.
     
  9. Feb 16, 2020 at 6:03 PM #9

    richiev

    richiev

    richiev

    Junior

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norrthern Illinois
    Would you post a picture of your grow chamber ? Thanks
     
  10. Feb 17, 2020 at 6:41 AM #10

    efBobby

    efBobby

    efBobby

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2019
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    4
    Gender:
    Male
    Sure but in the spirit of most gardeners everything has been recycled and repurposed so it isn't pretty but most effective!

    Pictured first 2 are upper level, cuttings, hot zone, third is of the flame. Humidity is very high turning the grape into an air plant popping off roots into thin air which is nice. Little longer and I can cut off rooted plants! lol last pic is for fully rooted plants/cooler zone.

    Anyway it uses fog propagation. The ambient air in the chamber is hot and dry. The foggers are in a reservoir, there is a duct that runs to the chamber and a fan that draws in ambient air and blows the fog through the duct.

    The hot ambient and the cool fog mesh to evaporate very quickly so there is no stagnant air and not much standing water. The media is a high sand mix so any surface moisture is quickly evacuated meaning no mold/fungi despite the humidity.

    There is a small secondary fan that circulates fog to the rest of the chamber but the majority of it transpirates in that one area by design keeping the cuttings from drying out and warm enough to form callouses image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg
     
    Rice_Guy and KevinL like this.
  11. Feb 17, 2020 at 6:44 AM #11

    efBobby

    efBobby

    efBobby

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2019
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    4
    Gender:
    Male
    Ps it works great for dormant cuttings but kinda so so for green cuttings.

    I am close to 100% on strike rates now just need to get that rate to apply to green cuttings and I'll be set!

    For the propagation setup there is a step process. There is a smaller pot in front that temp wise is cooler but is right next to the fog duct. There lies the newly introduced cuttings.....once they produce foliage they get moved to the bigger lot which is hotter to induce callousing and roots.

    From there gets moved sideways to further develop roots and eventually down to the cooler setup which is all blues for vegetative growth and cooler temps although some plants can go straight to the lower level after rooting if they are a cooler loving variety such as Riesling.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020 at 6:50 AM
  12. Feb 17, 2020 at 4:30 PM #12

    richiev

    richiev

    richiev

    Junior

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norrthern Illinois
    fontenac.JPG
    On a whim I took some cuttings from a friends vines. Let then soak in water for several days, then put them in potting soil. They have been in there now for about 45 days, and nothing seems to be happening. They are still alive thought. I checked and the cambium is still green. There may still be hope? I should set up a chamber something like yours. What are you using for a fogger. do you run it 24/7, and by a flame, do you mean a heat source ? Would you mind giving me a little more instructions ? They look like there doing great, and it looks for sure you know what your doing.
     
  13. Feb 17, 2020 at 8:12 PM #13

    Collie Flowers farm

    Collie Flowers farm

    Collie Flowers farm

    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2020
    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    On mine, the 101-14 took about 3weeks for bud break, Brianna only 2 weeks, but the shiraz took much much longer. These were just cuttings stuck in potting soil, nothing fancy...
    Thinking that it's a variety thing with vines that have either late or early bud break??
     
  14. Feb 17, 2020 at 11:32 PM #14

    richiev

    richiev

    richiev

    Junior

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norrthern Illinois
    These are Frontenac Gris. First I soaked them for a few days, then put them into potting soil. I have a grow light over them. I thought maybe they were dead, the tops are dried out. I pulled one out of the soil and, scraped it with my pocket knife. I was surprised to find it was still green. What temp. did you keep your at?
     
  15. Feb 18, 2020 at 8:50 AM #15

    efBobby

    efBobby

    efBobby

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2019
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    4
    Gender:
    Male
    Looks like you may need to increase humidity for sure! Oh sorry flame as in red flame. A seedless table grape. That is what is pictured growing roots into thin air, lol.

    Temp, I read it has to be high 70's to get the cuttings to form callouses but after you have callouses there is much more leeway as far as temp it requires to form roots but from what I have seen hotter the better.

    I remember once I was cleaning a cutting and the hot water I was using actually causes the callous to swell and produce a root in real time. Kinda wild looking.

    But it seems like you need help earlier in the process. With cuttings in general I look at it as kind of a race to root it before it becomes unviable.

    To my knowledge dormant grape cuttings do not imbibe any fluids so with that knowledge you must get it to utilize the fluids it has inside of itself before the fluids are either used up to maintain itself or they evaporate.

    Generally failure results from the second reason. The fluids transpire out of the cutting before achieving what they need to inside the cutting.

    THE TAKEAWAY: running as high humidity as possible without fungal growth more or less stops or slows down the rate at which the cutting loses its fluids. Giving it time to produce foliage and ultimately callouses then roots.

    aka like any type of transfer if it is more dry outside than inside the cutting then the fluids will try to push their way out. Since all the atmosphere outside is working against you trying to suck out that moisture/it is acting like a really dry sponge or to best visualize like burying the cutting entirely in dried rice.

    If it is more wet outside than inside then you might actually be able to imbibe fluids but that's an experiment for another day where i would actually have to remove a strip of bark.

    Whether a cutting is easy or difficult generally depends on vigor and the bark. The more loose the bark the faster it will lose fluids. The slower the variety grows the more important every little micro drop of fluid it has becomes.

    I would try to get humidity as high and constant as possible initially to get that foliage....once you get that foliage humidity is a little less important then the importance shifts to callouses which temp and humidity become most important. Also once you have foliage you generally want to move a little away from the humidity source bc too much moisture can actually degrade the plant's green tissues.

    But it seems like your hurdle may be the first one. Getting the buds to drop their shielding. Which is a good thing and a sign that it wants more humidity bc once the shielding is dropped the bud itself becomes a leak in fluids to the atmosphere.

    THE TAKEAWAY: try to maintain a constant level of humidity, light and heat. Generally the low side of heat and light since the brighter it is induces more heat via greenhouse effect and the hotter it is the faster things evaporate.

    THE TAKEAWAY PT2: what I discovered works best for me is if I receive a cutting that is fully shielded my goals shift to diffused light and heat with a constant humidity.......my secret I discovered.....a simple ziplock bag! Lol. I will soak the cutting up to 12-24 hours depending on the cuttings appearance and then place it into the bag(don't add water despite the temptation! TOO MUCH WATER WILL ALL BUT GUARANTEE FUNGAL GROWTH AND MOST CERTAINTLY KILL YOUR CUTTING), seal it and place it outside the grow chamber entirely! So it receives minimum heat and light and the ziplock bag will ensure the humidity is constant! It will take a few days but the cutting will drop its shielding to reveal a tan, fuzzy bud. If it has only been a few days I'll leave it in the bag until I see the bud swell and start to change to white then green but you can elect to take it out after it starts to swell or even after it has dropped its shielding. Just depends on how long it had to sit in there bc after a certain amount of time the humidity will begin to work against you. Generally 12-14 days is my upper most limit but i have seen it drop its shielding in as little as 3!

    If the limit needs to be exceeded I would cleanse the cutting with 80% diluted rubbing alcohol, re soak and rebag with a new bag. It's just easier to use a new bag vs sterilizing the old one. But this very rarely becomes a necessity.

    This should get you going. There is more than one path to a destination so feel free to experiment and use what works best FOR YOU!

    A caveat to my setup is with the heat; if that reservoir goes dry aka no more humidity I've got maybe 48 hours before everything in that foggy area is uselessly dead or even worse alive but unable to do anything useful but die slowly! :(

    Hopefully I have armed you with the knowledge in the form of setting your initial goals to successfully get those cuttings going! The foggers are actually a very inexpensive pond fogger purchased off eBay. For my setup it takes 2, for a smaller one just 1. The fogger, float and power supply is only $30 shipped! All the perks and none of the hassles or expense of mist propagation or hydroponics :) aka the ultrasonic fogger burns off the bacteria so even if the reservoir is filthy with algae the fog is clean! :)

    The blow through portion of the setup was born out of necessity but ended up being w happy accident! I could and did use fans as suction to more precisely deliver the fog but fog and electrical stuff doesn't play nice at all.

    The more sensitive electronics suffer from fast corrosion and unsealed stuff will get burned out through the fog accumulating and bridging connections it's not supposed to. The fan I use is an a/c fan that was given to me by a nursery owner. So use a/c! It's less complicated just a transformer and a motor!

    But even using that as suction would rust the bearings in the fan.

    Hope this helps!
     
  16. Feb 18, 2020 at 9:15 AM #16

    efBobby

    efBobby

    efBobby

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2019
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    4
    Gender:
    Male
    Ps more specific advice if you plan to bag or simply try to get the cuttings to perform. 45 days is ahem pushing it.

    If they are 3 node cuttings

    Step 1

    identify the best bud on the stick. If it's a middle, cut the top off, a top, cut the bottom off so you have a 2 node and a 1 node cutting. Keep the 1 node; miracles happen all the time in the plant world! Now you are recouping by 2 ways: one focusing your efforts on the best bud(cut off the other bud on the 2 node stick) which is most likely where the remaining fluids have colonized aka the plant itself makes choices too! And 2 you are doubling your active cuttings aka playing up the numbers!

    Step 2

    Cut a small sliver off your bottom most and top most cuttings(whichever one has been in the dirt) to assess its health done by observing color and non-pith to pith tissue. Also you want to reopen the wounds.

    Step 3

    Re-soak for half a day. Hopefully the new wounds will allow even a small amount of fluids in.

    Step 4

    Gently dry off a small area of bark around all of your wounds and apply a small dab of grafting wax if you have it candle wax of you do not as to seal the new wounds to keep fluids inside. Also applicable for long term storage but generally not necessary for general rooting.

    Step 5

    put "new" cuttings into a setup revision of your own devising. If they fail do not fret they were just cuttings and you did not really kill anything.

    Step 6

    Bring your friend some sort of good will gesture(bottle of wine or whatever) and ply for more cuttings. Aka no one likes a worrisome beggar; you can get the first one for free but after that best to use the unspoken system in order to keep the good will.....good!

    Exception being if you made any sort of promise ahead of time in exchange for the cuttings but even then the gesture can't hurt!

    Hope this specifically helps!


    P.s. Those green cutting look rough. I would wager that part of the bottoms are dead. I'm not a green cutting expert yet and maybe someone else more skilled with rooting them can chime in.

    Does green wood imbibe water?

    Based off what I see, pull and cut off anything discolored, dip in hormone and maybe employ a dome of some sort(top cut off a water bottle maybe?) with a few holes in it to circulate air. The green wood is way more sensitive since it has no bark to protect it; it transpires fluid much faster!

    Not all bad, green wood is generally more vigorous and you don't have to worry about budding or foliage so a trade off really.

    Some grape varieties have a drooping tip but generally speaking any type of drooping, green vegetation is indicative that it is dehydrating and wilting. Aka not enough fluid to inflate the stalk enough to hold its shape. With grapes and most plants in general their goal is to get to the sun so generally the tips will be as tall and straight as possible only exception being the top bud which may be covered by a leaf to protect it from sunburn.

    Edit: as why it craves the sun....sunlight itself is the result of the release of energy from thermal fusion and all life needs energy! I'm not a scientist but if I had to guess I would say the plant uses the sunlight in order create some sort of chemical to break down the nutrients it has collected in its roots(kinda like a chemical fission) the result of which is the energy it uses to live. I could have it backwards and it uses the light to fuse the nutrients it has collected......base point being the nutrients are useless without the catalyst(be it a bonding catalyst or a breaking catalyst but if I had to guess I'd say the catalyst is water or more importantly it's hydrogen content plus whatever the hell it has photo synthesized from the sun!)
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020 at 9:59 AM
  17. Feb 18, 2020 at 12:34 PM #17

    Rice_Guy

    Rice_Guy

    Rice_Guy

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2014
    Messages:
    463
    Likes Received:
    268
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    midwest
    Fun project, , , , Plant rooting hormone helps.
    Rooting seems to have some seasonality, in the Midwest it works faster in mid March to April, , basically when the buds are ready to swell.
    In May I have had extra cuttings in a bucket of water root by themselves.
     
  18. Feb 18, 2020 at 3:04 PM #18

    richiev

    richiev

    richiev

    Junior

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norrthern Illinois
    Thank You, Your reply is very helpful.
     
  19. Feb 18, 2020 at 5:02 PM #19

    efBobby

    efBobby

    efBobby

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2019
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    4
    Gender:
    Male
    Np. I just recently developed everything so I have been bagging older cuttings that initially performed poorly with some success.

    Even getting 1 to perform is great considering they were originally slated for the trash. But you can tell they are/were poor simply be they are all 1 nodes.

    So far out of a lot of 25 scraps these 4 have some potential with one of them being developed enough to go back to the grow chamber to be rooted.

    Right now it is soaking :)

    image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg
     
  20. Feb 18, 2020 at 5:16 PM #20

    efBobby

    efBobby

    efBobby

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2019
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    4
    Gender:
    Male
    image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg Here are 4 cuttings of moon drops rcd 3 days ago.

    First one is in the grow chamber and will most likely produce foliage by this time tomorrow.

    Other 3 are still bagged with the middle one being further developed. It should be ready for grow chamber in about 48h.

    Other 2 a bit longer but still moving along. Red wax wasn't me/came that way. But just wanted to illustrate how the buds come out of their shielding and make their way to second stage which is foliage.

    Even if none of the other stuff I do suits you. Definitely consider the ziplock bagging. Weighing how much you get out of them vs the amount of effort put in them its a slam dunk!

    Without the ziplock 1-3 of them may not have been viable.
     

Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page

Group Builder