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These are Frontenac Gris. First I soaked them for a few days, then put them into potting soil. I have a grow light over them. I thought maybe they were dead, the tops are dried out. I pulled one out of the soil and, scraped it with my pocket knife. I was surprised to find it was still green. What temp. did you keep your at?
Mine have been at 79F and 60% rh.
I keep the soil pretty moist too for starters..
 

richiev

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I reported previously, that the vines I have growing in my basement developed some small holes, but were growing at a fast pace. Today I noticed some small brown spots, alsoP2200122.JPG P2200123.JPG their growth has seem to come to a stand still.

Also when I moved the soil a vey small insect came flying out.
 

richiev

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Ps more specific advice if you plan to bag or simply try to get the cuttings to perform. 45 days is ahem pushing it.

If they are 3 node cuttings

Step 1

identify the best bud on the stick. If it's a middle, cut the top off, a top, cut the bottom off so you have a 2 node and a 1 node cutting. Keep the 1 node; miracles happen all the time in the plant world! Now you are recouping by 2 ways: one focusing your efforts on the best bud(cut off the other bud on the 2 node stick) which is most likely where the remaining fluids have colonized aka the plant itself makes choices too! And 2 you are doubling your active cuttings aka playing up the numbers!

Step 2

Cut a small sliver off your bottom most and top most cuttings(whichever one has been in the dirt) to assess its health done by observing color and non-pith to pith tissue. Also you want to reopen the wounds.

Step 3

Re-soak for half a day. Hopefully the new wounds will allow even a small amount of fluids in.

Step 4

Gently dry off a small area of bark around all of your wounds and apply a small dab of grafting wax if you have it candle wax of you do not as to seal the new wounds to keep fluids inside. Also applicable for long term storage but generally not necessary for general rooting.

Step 5

put "new" cuttings into a setup revision of your own devising. If they fail do not fret they were just cuttings and you did not really kill anything.

Step 6

Bring your friend some sort of good will gesture(bottle of wine or whatever) and ply for more cuttings. Aka no one likes a worrisome beggar; you can get the first one for free but after that best to use the unspoken system in order to keep the good will.....good!

Exception being if you made any sort of promise ahead of time in exchange for the cuttings but even then the gesture can't hurt!

Hope this specifically helps!


P.s. Those green cutting look rough. I would wager that part of the bottoms are dead. I'm not a green cutting expert yet and maybe someone else more skilled with rooting them can chime in.

Does green wood imbibe water?

Based off what I see, pull and cut off anything discolored, dip in hormone and maybe employ a dome of some sort(top cut off a water bottle maybe?) with a few holes in it to circulate air. The green wood is way more sensitive since it has no bark to protect it; it transpires fluid much faster!

Not all bad, green wood is generally more vigorous and you don't have to worry about budding or foliage so a trade off really.

Some grape varieties have a drooping tip but generally speaking any type of drooping, green vegetation is indicative that it is dehydrating and wilting. Aka not enough fluid to inflate the stalk enough to hold its shape. With grapes and most plants in general their goal is to get to the sun so generally the tips will be as tall and straight as possible only exception being the top bud which may be covered by a leaf to protect it from sunburn.

Edit: as why it craves the sun....sunlight itself is the result of the release of energy from thermal fusion and all life needs energy! I'm not a scientist but if I had to guess I would say the plant uses the sunlight in order create some sort of chemical to break down the nutrients it has collected in its roots(kinda like a chemical fission) the result of which is the energy it uses to live. I could have it backwards and it uses the light to fuse the nutrients it has collected......base point being the nutrients are useless without the catalyst(be it a bonding catalyst or a breaking catalyst but if I had to guess I'd say the catalyst is water or more importantly it's hydrogen content plus whatever the hell it has photo synthesized from the sun!)
Following your instructions by the steps.
View attachment 58953
 

efBobby

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Hmmmm....brown spots most likely frass. Since they are so widespread I recommend cutting the leaf off and trashing it.

Also there could be eggs on the leaf.

The frass could encourage some nasty growth to take hold.

The flying insect? Was it small and black like a gnat or white/silver?

Small black most likely fungus gnat. Are your vines in a peat heavy mix?

They are not usually destructive until their numbers get really high then they munch roots but typically eat other stuff "decaying plant matter" first. The wet peat is their breeding ground where they pupate into gnats.

If they are white/silver then most likely whitefly which can do more damage.

Wouldn't panick yet. Good shot of sevin should stop em cold.

Inspect foliage/buds/stalks for eggs; however if your vines are truly growing fast do not confuse grape pearls for eggs.

There isn't really a good explanation for em that I know of but when a vine is legit happy you will see these translucent round "pearls" on the plant mainly on the vine stalks.

I remember I was like wtf kinda egg is it but it isn't an egg but sap that for some reason seeps out of the vine and hardens.

Step 1:

Inspect for spots and remove foliage either entirely or partially

Step 2: inspect for eggs and do the same except for buds and first leaf.

Step 3: inspect media for tiny white worms or anything alive.

Step 4: hit the leaves, buds, vines with some liquid sevin. Don't have any? Use one of those measuring spoons that come with fertilizers one big scoop of powder in half a gallon jug, add hot water and shake vigorously.

Now u have liquid sevin. Water plant to get a precoat on the roots so the sevin either won't stick or dilute. Drench plant and media. Wait a couple hours and water the media where the roots are.

Step 5:

Hit the foliage, buds and stalks once a day for 7 days. Only hit the media of you see more flies.

Intent is to break the life cycle since the foliage is either or both food and nursery.

By doing this the surviving population will die out but if you wanna hit em harder hit the media Every 3 days.

Doesn't sound like your infestation is bad so you are in a good place.
 

efBobby

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Cuttings looking like they might do something now. Not out of the woods yet but they seem to be dropping the shielding. Good work!
 

efBobby

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Ps not all bugs are bad. If you get some little gray bugs that looks like tiny rice grains and jump when you disturb them they are spring tails and feast exclusively on "dead ripe" plant matter.

Generally the stuff that will encourage fungal growth. Aka they do not eat any living plant matter. They are easy to spot when you water. Try to save some and separate before the tactical nukes come out! :)
 

efBobby

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After this has past consider amending your mix to have less plant matter in it. Aka less peat usually.

Idk what your mix is now but the one I like so far is 66% sand, 14% perlite, 10% vermiculite, 6% peat, 4% loam(mud) or silt(sandy mud)...just a handful. Stuff has micronutrients in it grapes adore.

Taken from outside, hit with boiling water to sterilize.

If your humidity is lower perhaps use the following: 60% sand, 14% vermiculite, 10% peat, 10% perlite and 6% loam preferably silt.

The vermiculite acts as a substitute for peat in regards to holding water but not a complete substitute since verm has no nutritional value.

Perhaps try to extract the root ball with media in tact if the media is sticky, add new media and after a few waterings will intermingle. If the mix is fluffy then plug the drain holes and fill the pot up with water, then extract plant gently.

Dump contents, add new media, fill up pot with water and gently insert plant.

The first method is preferred bc the plant will pout bc you are asking it's roots to adapt to new soil aka keeping some of the old soil in the middle softens that shock by a large margin and when the roots expand will adapt to the new media without the pouting.

That the term I use for drooping/wilting btw but not in the dire straight sense but the plant is adapting, will stop growing, look like shit but recover fully sense. Lol
 

richiev

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After this has past consider amending your mix to have less plant matter in it. Aka less peat usually.

Idk what your mix is now but the one I like so far is 66% sand, 14% perlite, 10% vermiculite, 6% peat, 4% loam(mud) or silt(sandy mud)...just a handful. Stuff has micronutrients in it grapes adore.

Taken from outside, hit with boiling water to sterilize.

If your humidity is lower perhaps use the following: 60% sand, 14% vermiculite, 10% peat, 10% perlite and 6% loam preferably silt.

The vermiculite acts as a substitute for peat in regards to holding water but not a complete substitute since verm has no nutritional value.

Perhaps try to extract the root ball with media in tact if the media is sticky, add new media and after a few waterings will intermingle. If the mix is fluffy then plug the drain holes and fill the pot up with water, then extract plant gently.

Dump contents, add new media, fill up pot with water and gently insert plant.

The first method is preferred bc the plant will pout bc you are asking it's roots to adapt to new soil aka keeping some of the old soil in the middle softens that shock by a large margin and when the roots expand will adapt to the new media without the pouting.

That the term I use for drooping/wilting btw but not in the dire straight sense but the plant is adapting, will stop growing, look like shit but recover fully sense. Lol
The bugs are very small black gnat looking. I don't know what the soil composition is. I bought it as an organic potting mix. also I have the cutting in a zip lock bag, and experimenting with a small fogger, and a plastic dome. How deep do the cuttings need to be placed into the soil. I was thinking I could sterilize some soil by putting it in the oven, if I didn't have to put them to deep. Is this what you meant by small crystals growing on the vines? P2210138.JPG P2210139.JPG [/ATTACH] P2210139.JPG
 

efBobby

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I couldn't be sure from the first pic but the second and third one yes those are grape pearls.

Although you may have inadvertently photoed a pest! lol!

On the first pic, the vine to the left. There aren't any pearls on it but I see something small and yellow seemingly suspended from one of the hairs on the vine.....first inclination is possibly an adult spider mite?

Not related to your other pest which is definitely fungus gnat!

If your mix is black then yes it has peat and/or decaying plant matter in it. I would definitely work to amend it. With the presence of fungus gnats also points to it may be too wet.

Which is a slippery slope with grapes. More sand helps fool proof the mix since it's nearly impossible to over water it! lol!

Do you have any type of fan with your dome or have you aerated it by adding holes?

Air movement is paramount with the higher humidity. For the most part your cuttings are protected but even that will not last. Once you get spore growth it's difficult to eradicate.

I have experience with lowland tropicals so I'm pretty comfy with using high 90's rh setups. That being said it isn't too big of a deal with cuttings bc they have no roots or vegetation yet. Sole objective being to keep the sap it has inside of it so it can be used to make foliage and roots.

Extra tips

Some cuttings Will produce flowers; soon as you can get to the stalk cut them off! They do this bc that's what the bud was already setup to do before the vine was chopped off the plant.

Are you using rooting hormone? Since the cuttings are distressed I highly recommend it! I bought a little can of powder from a retail store a year ago for like $5 so they can most likely be sourced online for half that.

It will promote callousing and seal the wound. Callousing is the overall main objective bc then you are all but guaranteed roots!

On the cuttings, since they aren't fresh I would bury them up to the bottom of whichever node is active.
 
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efBobby

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These are better illustrations but the foggers are inside that container. Ducted to the chamber on 1 side and a high volume a/c fan on the other.

There is a much smaller d/c fan inside that serves to evacuate any excess fog into the rest of the grow areas as a little added boost but bear in mind for the other areas the rh is much lower.

Third pic is of that moon drop cutting with the wax top. 48h later and foliage, right on schedule! :h

Notice I have moved it further away from the front of the duct.

Also notice the brightness of the rooting chamber. :cool: Maybe a little overkill but fi I needed roots yesterday! Lol

Rooting chamber is a 2800/6400k combo then transitions left to a 4k/6400k combo and to the lower level which is all 6400k.

Edit: the fixture also churns out the heat too so win/win bc it's cold asab right now!

Oh it also has a reflector and I used seran wrap to shield the bulbs and more importantly the ballasts from the fog!


image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg
 
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richiev

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Oh Boy!! spider mites. Will Neem oil work, or should I just start with the big guns(Sevin). Yes the soil does stay moist, something I have been trying to figure a way out of. I do have some root hormones for the next time I set the cuttings in soil. They have been in a zip lock now for about 36 hrs. I can't see any changes, but then again, I didn't see the spider mites. Zees' what's it going to be like when I get my vines from Double A and plant them outdoors in a real environment?
I have been experimenting with a small grow chamber. I can get it up to 100% RH. then control it with two adjustable vents on the top. Now I'm working on temp.
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efBobby

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I can't say for certain it's a spider mite but appears to be something. Could just be debris.

Far as the ziplock check once every 3 days for any signs of budding and for any type of fungi/mold.

Regarding pesticide if you go, go for the throat! Lol!

Amidst the many caveats of a grow room one of the benefits is you can go as hard as you want on pesticide in my opinion.

One of the main reasons broad spectrum pesticide use is "discouraged" are the detrimental affects to the good insects and possibly the wild life.....none of which exist in your basement. :)

Any residuals can serve a dual purpose as a deterrent to any bug wanting to take up residence! Lol!

I used to have a hygrometer I think it is called but now I just go my the water droplets on the side! Lol!

Far as temps once your active cuttings are deposited into the grow chamber, high 70's is optimal to my knowledge but ambient air and soil temps are not the same so if you aren't heating the soil then will seek to have a hotter air temperature which is the route I am taking bc I don't have any mats! Lol.

But it's all relative. Keeping in mind the humidity keeps the excess heat in check by ensuring the cuttings do not dehydrate. Vice versa the heat keeps the excess humidity in check by quickly evaporating it. The high sand content keeps the high amount of surface run off in check by not holding much if any moisture.

Crap you learn through trial and error! Lol! So a final word of caution with high rh. Make sure you have something in place to evaporate it and or transfer it out!

It's not as important with active but un-bud-broken cuttings but once you get foliage seek to evaporate it off the leaves and roots if you plan on growing what you root in the same pot.

Personally I prefer to transfer them out as soon as I see the first signs of rooting. As seen in the pics the crazy high rh is for the overall rooting process. The places they grow have much less. Approx high 60 to low 70 rh.

I had a couple heat mats but they quietly died. I'm guessing they must have a thermal fuse in them. If I get the time I will perform a post mortem bc I can easily repair them if it is just a fuse.

I will get some for next winter...no point now! lol. Also with the relativity factor adding a heat mat changes it all. Meaning I'd have to amend my media to hold more water.

The old axiom is definitely true here "if it ain't broke; don't fix it". It's a little too late for me to experiment. I prefer to do that in the beginning of the cool down so I only have a small control group of test subjects to try stuff out on and my high value vegetation can still remain outside but covered if need be until I am satisfied!
 
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efBobby

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1 important thing I forgot to mention. Generally I will check on my bagged cuttings every 3 days.
If there is no progress then I will soak them again in warm water for a couple hours then rebag.

After 21 days if there is no progress I will go for broke and put it/them in the chamber anyway.
 

richiev

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1 important thing I forgot to mention. Generally I will check on my bagged cuttings every 3 days.
If there is no progress then I will soak them again in warm water for a couple hours then rebag.

After 21 days if there is no progress I will go for broke and put it/them in the chamber anyway.
Making progress!! Sorry hard to see. Bad camera ability's. P2290155.JPG P2290156.JPG

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efBobby

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On the contrary the progress is easy to see! They are coloring up nicely! Going from tan to white and finally to green!

Nice work!
 

efBobby

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They should start forming leaves in 3-5 days.

What's the temp in there?
 

efBobby

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Nice! You got this!

Will be interesting to see what tweaks you come up with as you progress. Keep us all posted!
 

richiev

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Nice! You got this!

Will be interesting to see what tweaks you come up with as you progress. Keep us all posted!
Thank You, I have learned much from you in the past month. This would not have been possible without your help.

This is my new chamber,small but works well.

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How long should I wait before looking for roots,and transfering to a larger pot? Is there a tell tale sign, Maybe size of leafs? Should I be giving them fertilizer now ? Thanks.
 

efBobby

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They haven't rooted yet so fertS will do more harm than good.

Not sure I can accurately answer this since the number of variables is high but generally I check when I water then, I separate the ones that have callouses from the ones that do not but once you get callouses generally 3-5 days and you will have roots.

I'd wait a while before applying any ferts. Let the roots get big enough en mass and a little more acclimated but maybe 30 days after roots; maybe longer I'm not 100% but basically if the plant "looks established" then go for it!
 
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