WineXpert To Stir Kit Wine in Primary or Not?

[NoSnob]

I thought this had been discussed but I can't find the thread. If so, please refer me to it.

The WE kits say to pitch the yeast & leave in primary until SG remains same for three days. The instructions don't speak to stirring the must during primary fermentation. Yet I read here that non-kit winemakers like to stir that must once or twice daily (and when making blackberry wine that's what I did!). Yet when making WE kits I have tightly sealed the fermentation bucket & left it for a week or so until time to begin checking the SG.

I think this discussion centers around whether removing the top daily offers more chance for contamination than the offsetting positive benefit of adding a little more oxygen to the must. Whaddya think?

NS

 

[Rocky]

Hi NS,

If I decide to ferment to dry in the primary, I keep my kit wines in the primary from start to when SG is about 1.020, stirring the wine a couple times daily. The lid just lays on top of the primary as there is so much gas being expelled that there is no danger of oxidation. When I hit SG 1.020, I snap the lid down and install an airlock and watch the activity in the airlock until it stops for three days straight. I then rack to a carboy for stabilization and clearing.

If I am going to do secondary fermentation in a carboy, I move the wine from the primary at SG 1.020, keep it there until fermentation stops and then rack to a clean carboy for stabiliztion and clearing.

I feel that up to SG 1.020 you are safe stirring daily.

 

[robie]

Like you said, the instructions have you lock the wine down because they are more concerned with contamination that lack of oxygen during primary.

I am a firm believer in leaving the lid on loosely (not sealed) and stirring my red kit wines twice a day during normal primary fermentation, which goes until the kit instructions say to rack to secondary. Once secondary begins, whether still in the primary bucket or in a carboy, the wine should be sealed under an air lock and not stirred.

The idea of primary stirring is to stir up the yeast and stir in some oxygen.

White wines are a little different. Some believe whites should be locked down under an air lock all through both primary and secondary fermentation. I still believe whites need stirred in primary, but less often; only once each day or even once every other day. Whites are more susceptible to oxidation and can turn brown if too much oxygen gets into the wine. However, this possibility is much more prevalent in stages following primary fermentation.

Whether red or white, during primary there is lots of CO2 being produced minute by minute. This CO2 will protect the wine very well by pushing out almost all of the oxygen that gets into the wine.

 

[cpfan]

NoSnob...

Without knowing which kit you are asking about I can't answer.

If the kit contains grape skins, or a floating tea bag, or something else that floats, then I think it should be stirred GENTLY daily mostly to submerge whatever is floating. Other kits do not need to be stirred. If the ferment has started then the action of the yeast/CO2 should keep everything in motion. By the time that the ferment is finishing, the wine doesn't need more oxygen.

I know that a lot of people think that stirring is needed to add oxygen to the wine. I'm not one of those. The kit should be stirred vigourously before pitching the yeast. This serves to mix the kit contents and added water, mix the bentonite, and incorporate oxygen into the must. Some people use their drill/stirrer to accomplish this.

The WE kits say to pitch the yeast & leave in primary until SG remains same for three days

REALLY? Which WE kits have you been making? I don't recall seeing that wording in any kit's instructions, not even the RJS 14-day-in-primary instructions.

Steve

 

[Putterrr]

I never stir my wines either and have the lid sitting loosely on top. Like cpfan if there is something floating (oak bag, grape pack) then I stir it gently once a day.

As for instructions, I make all my wines the same way whether its an RJS or WE 6 week kit. I leave them in the primary pail with the lid on loosely till the SG reaches 1.010 or so then i rack to my secondary bringing over most of the lees. After they finish fermenting, I rack to another carboy (leaving the sediment behind), degas and stabilize.

Cheers

 

[NoSnob]

NoSnob...

Without knowing which kit you are asking about I can't answer.

If the kit contains grape skins, or a floating tea bag, or something else that floats, then I think it should be stirred GENTLY daily mostly to submerge whatever is floating. Other kits do not need to be stirred. If the ferment has started then the action of the yeast/CO2 should keep everything in motion. By the time that the ferment is finishing, the wine doesn't need more oxygen.

I know that a lot of people think that stirring is needed to add oxygen to the wine. I'm not one of those. The kit should be stirred vigourously before pitching the yeast. This serves to mix the kit contents and added water, mix the bentonite, and incorporate oxygen into the must. Some people use their drill/stirrer to accomplish this.


REALLY? Which WE kits have you been making? I don't recall seeing that wording in any kit's instructions, not even the RJS 14-day-in-primary instructions.

Steve

cpfan: Understandably, you have taken exception to my exact wording. Actually, I was bracketing WE instruction steps for primary and secondary fermentation. At the end of secondary fermentation instructions call for obtaining 0.996 or less SG readings on two consecutive days. Today I have WE SE Mosel Valley Gewurztraminer in the primary, but my question is generic, as are the WE instructions.

I am at the stage in learning where I find it easy to follow the WE instructions and difficult to decide how to depart from them and also tailor my procedures to the wine type. Your comments are very helpful in beginning to depart from instructions using modified procedures that will improve my kit wine results.
NS

 

[NoSnob]

robie: Thanks for the very succinct recommendations. I finally found the old threads and went back & reviewed them as well. Winemaking is both art and science so we get a variety of opinions and that's why I reall appreciate this board and the help I receive here.
NS

 

[cpfan]

cpfan: Understandably, you have taken exception to my exact wording. Actually, I was bracketing WE instruction steps for primary and secondary fermentation. At the end of secondary fermentation instructions call for obtaining 0.996 or less SG readings on two consecutive days. Today I have WE SE Mosel Valley Gewurztraminer in the primary, but my question is generic, as are the WE instructions.

I "took exception" to your wording, because I don't think you read the instructions.

Selection Estate instructions (at least those on the Internet), do not say anything about .996 or less on two consecutive days. Although this is a good way to handle things. BTW, my experience with this kit (made it for a customer 2 or 3 times about 5-6 years ago), is that it will end around .992.

At the start of Section 3 (Stabilizing and Clearing), it says

After 10 days, check your specific gravity. If it is higher than 0.996 wait 2 days and measure again.

Steve

 

[NoSnob]

cpfan: My instructions are not from the Internet and are not from 5-6 years ago but are from current instructions that came with my kit. I stand by my paraphrasing of them. I now quote from Step 3 which begins when secondary fermentation is complete. "After 10 days, check your specific gravity. It should be 0.996 or less. Verify a stable gravity by checking again the next day. If the gravity has changed, leave the wine until the reading is stable on two consecutive days."

I find it interesting that you are trying to make me out to not have read the instructions when in fact you do not even have current applicable instructions.

NS

 

[robie]

Let's all be nice, guys and gals!!!

 

[CB750]

I think that many of us are able to make good wine using a variety of different methods that may tend to conflict each other.

Wine kits are intended for the novice or first time winemaker and they are not cheep. I think the manufactures try to keep things as simple and uncomplicated for the customer so that the wine turns out good and they purchase more of their kits. I have noticed differences in instructions amoung different kit manufactures so which company is right?

I tend to follow the kit instructions but I do shake the carboy for a number of minute to introduce as much air into the wine before I pitch the yeast. I also double up on the yeast and tend to get a vgerious and quick primary ferment in air lock carboy without stiring the wine. These are techniques I learned from brewing beer and they have served me will in my wine and mead making. I also believe in trying to keep the process simple and handle the wine as little as possible. Your goal is to get your wine to your target SG and your worst enemy is contamination and the more you mess with it the greater chance something will go wrong.

 

[NoSnob]

Sounds reasonable to me. After a while I think even we beginners begin to trust our own experience.
If I lived in an area where it was feasible, I'd buy juice by the bucket or maybe frozen but the kits are always available and after a year of making them I find that the wine keeps geting better & better the longer it's aged. Not coincidentally, that's exactly what the experts on this forum told me when I began!!
NS

 

[Dugger]

I.......Wine kits are intended for the novice or first time winemaker and they are not cheep...... .

I believe that kits are certainly a good way for beginners to start and agree that some of them are not cheap. However, kits are not intended to be just limited to novices or first timers. Many winemakers are very experienced and knowledgeable and still make wines from kits; some kits (generally the ones that aren't cheap) make excellent wines and these wines win and win big at amateur winemaker competitions.
Kits are invaluable for those winemakers who have limited access to grapes or juice, for winemakers who have limited equipment or space for using grapes, for those who wish to make wine between grape seasons, for those who want a particular blend that may otherwise be unavailable - these are a few reasons why kits are important to many winemakers.
To suggest that kits are only for beginners is not only a disservice to many experienced winemakers but also to the kit companies who produce some exceptional products.

 

[NoSnob]

My first kit was a WE Selection Original but all the subsequent kits have been the WE Selection Estate. With all the time I invest in making wine I figure I should use top notch kits. [I don't mean that other kit wine brands are not just as good.]

Is it your experience that the best kits require the most aging time to showcase their best potential?

NS

 

[lambert_the_old]

I havn't made wines in a long time so this was my first read on here. I put the must into my secondary carboy after nine days the baume was about 1.23. The wine is now in the sealed glass carboy with an airlock on top, heres the part I cant remember it is gassing off a lot and the color is nothing like I've ever seen its like muddy brown. Its suppose to be a rose, do ya all think ive messed up The way I see it I'll wait for a couple of weeks and see what happens but maybe my wine kit was bad it was really old. Lost as to what to do

 

[robie]

I havn't made wines in a long time so this was my first read on here. I put the must into my secondary carboy after nine days the baume was about 1.23. The wine is now in the sealed glass carboy with an airlock on top, heres the part I cant remember it is gassing off a lot and the color is nothing like I've ever seen its like muddy brown. Its suppose to be a rose, do ya all think ive messed up The way I see it I'll wait for a couple of weeks and see what happens but maybe my wine kit was bad it was really old. Lost as to what to do

You need to tell us a little more about what kind of wine, is it a kit. Until it is completed fermentation and been degassed and cleared, its color won't be nearly what you expect.

 

[cpfan]

the color is nothing like I've ever seen its like muddy brown. Its suppose to be a rose, do ya all think ive messed up The way I see it I'll wait for a couple of weeks and see what happens but maybe my wine kit was bad it was really old. Lost as to what to do

1) this question really should be separated from the rest of the thread, it's not at all related. Moderators?

2) Lambert...you get the most help when you give the most info. Two simple q's for you. What is the kit (brand, variety, anything else)? How do you know it's "really old"?

Sounds to me like a BADLY oxidized white zinfandel (ie rose).

Steve

 

[lambert_the_old]

Sorry for being in the wrong place I have no idea how these boards work. It,s still flashing off seven days in secondary carboy. Its a wine kit thats suppose to be a white zinfadel blush from wine kitz, but has been sitting in my cupboard for quite awhile. Like a few years while I was down in Costa Rica. Funny thing as bad as it looks it smells really great. The baume stick is still dropping so its making alchohol but in stead of blush maybe ill have burnt color lol thanks eh

 

[lambert_the_old]

I could always use it as mash

 

[lambert_the_old]

Maybe i should have stirred it more in Primary there am I on topic.