Sorbate and ML

[rjb222]

Most bottle bombs are created by new winemakers thinking sorbate and sulfites will stop an active fermentation and they won't. The second major cause is new winemakes bottling with out proper degassing. By not bottling so fast I solve both of those problems. And what happens when the sulfite levels in your wine go down? Sorbate will not prevent fermentation from starting it will only prevent yeast from reproducing.
mmadmikes is correct here.
There is only two ways to ensure a non restart to a fermentation.1) You need to bring the yeast to it's alcohol tolerance level. Alcohol poisons yeast every yeast has a level where the alcohol will kill the yeast.
This is the easiest for the home wine maker to achieve.2) The other method is to drop the temperature and then sterile filter with a absolute filter. This is a very hard method for the home wine maker to achieve. As the temperature is crucial and has to be maintained for and extended period of time before filtering.

 

[mmadmikes1]

Seth I think you have a false sense of security. I am killing the yeast and you are stunting them with Sulfites and the sorbate only prevents yeast reproduction. I kill them with alcohol and use the K Meta to prevent oxidation.. Time is my friend here and the 3 p's still apply. I truly believe sorbate has no real value when I make wine. My only purpose in the discussion to to let people know you can make wine without adding chemicals at every point. Some people do not want all the added chemicals. I have no real dislike for them except I can taste sorbate and don't like it

 

[seth8530]

You are no more killing the yeast than I am. The yeast does not quite die when you let it hit the alcohol ceiling for the yeast type.. If you were to try diluting down one of your wines with water and then adding some sugar you might find that the yeast are very much alive. Just a little hungover.

I would not dare back sweeten a wine without sorbate unless I had fortified the wine to a point Wayyyyy past its tolerance.

 

[mmadmikes1]

I have posted what I do and have done for years and it works, You continue to guess it won't. Why? I am post my experience. Do you think I am making $hit up? SORBATE WILL NOT STOP FERMENTATION. Check it out. It is not what it does. Have you ever tried making wine the way I posted?" I would not dare back sweeten a wine without sorbate" is your words, and I do it, in other words you have never tried and really don't know from your own experience. Just acting like a tech and going though the steps as you were told. I consider wine makeing a craft. I learn new stuff by trying new stuff.

 

[seth8530]

Yes, I have seen quite a few of my dad's exploded wine bottles from attempting to rely solely on alcohol to prevent fermentation. I have also seen bottle bombs at a commercial winery who used filters to prevent fermentation. I never pretended that to say that sorbate kills yeast, but if you prevent them from reproducing the chances of them doing you any harm are quite low.

So, no I learned from watching other peoples results from relying too strongly on trusting the alcohol tolerance of the yeast instead of doing it myself.

BTW why did you quote me as saying that sorbate stops fermentation?

I found a good quote on it

"
When dissolved in water, potassium sorbate (CH3CH=CHCH=CHCOOK) breaks into sorbic acid and ionic potassium. It is sorbic acid that has selective anti-fungal, anti-microbial properties. It inhibits yeast very effectively—it does not kill yeast cells, it only prevents their growth and activity. Therefore, before sorbate is added, a wine should be racked clear in order to reduce the number of yeast cells.
Sorbic acid itself is soluble in alcohol but virtually insoluble in water. However, potassium sorbate, a salt of sorbic acid, is very soluble in water and virtually insoluble in alcohol. This is why sorbate is used to carry the sorbic acid into the wine."


I said that I would never dare to sweeten a non sorbated wine. And I stand by that because not using sorbate is like sex without birth control or condoms.. Yea you might get away with it... But is it really worth it? Is it worth risking your year and a half old wine over? Especially considering how easy it is to add a little in.

Also consider how few people can taste sorbate in a wine when used in the proper amount. To be honest you are the first person I have heard say they can taste it when used in the proper dosage. For a new up and coming winemaker wouldn't it make a little more sense to advise them to go with the surer method one less likely to end in bombs?



I understand you do not like the use of sorbate and that is well and fine.. And you need to take extra care and as well as alittle bit of luck to get away with it.. However, many readers of this forum are learning the craft and it is not in their best interest to take risk when they don't need to.

 

[seth8530]

BTW, I did not mean to come off acting like ZOMG its impossible to make wine without sorbate. Its just that you are taking a risk while doing that and I would not advise someone else to do that.

 

[mmadmikes1]

I do not believe it is a surer method, that's why. But obviously you do

 

[seth8530]

You have me wrong. The way I see it.. Sorbate is not an alternative to but a vital supplement to alcohol's yeast inhibiting abilities.

We all know that as the alcohol content increases the yeast are more likely to go to sleep or die off.

We both know that that sorbate stops yeast reproduction and according to that quote it prevents its activity as well.

So if we can give it the one two punch of both alcohol and sorbate you could almost guarantee that your bottles will not explode unless you bottle your wine extremely gassy and then the temperature goes go up later on.

 

[AJ-123]

I only do MLF on Reds, and I never backsweetin Reds, so guess that is why I did get it. BTW I backsweetin wines all the time and NEVER use sorbate.

Really. Do you use artificial sweetners? I'm curious if you use actual sugar/sugar-products and merely did fermentation/aging/sulphites.

AJ

 

[mmadmikes1]

I use sugar and honey, never artificial sweeting. but maxing out yeast, aging and sulfides is it.Aging is Important!. If by chance it does restart it is in a vessel aging and nothing is lost

 

[AJ-123]

I use sugar and honey, never artificial sweeting. but maxing out yeast, aging and sulfides is it.Aging is Important!. If by chance it does restart it is in a vessel aging and nothing is lost

So after sweetening, you cask/carboy age it some more and only bottle it after it's clear nothing additional is going on. I guess that somewhat reduces your risk of a bottle-bomb and/or unwanted carbonation.

 

[mmadmikes1]

So after sweetening, you cask/carboy age it some more and only bottle it after it's clear nothing additional is going on. I guess that somewhat reduces your risk of a bottle-bomb and/or unwanted carbonation.

Yes, that is correct but the re-start is not why I age, it is just a bonus. I match yeast tolerances to what I am shooting for. Then I max out yeast. I backsweetin to 1.02(my personal for most fruit wines) then put into bulk aging for up to 2 year but no less than 1 year. Remember wine gets better with age and that is why I age.