sanitization of bottles, why use sulfites?

[saucebag]

i see most books, people, winos all use sulfites (meta) to sterilize bottles...can you use iodophor or star san? i just wondered...does it mess with pH of wine or whatever??
Thanks

 

[milbrosa]

Yes, you can use Star San or Iodophor to sanitize your bottles. I often use Iodophor. I don't like the Star San bubbles, so I don't use that for sanitizing bottles, but the foam is harmless, from all accounts.

Sodium or potassium metabisulfite are the traditional sanitizers. They are extremely cheap, and effective, they help to slow down oxidation, and trace residue doesn't hurt your wines.

You are sanitizing, not sterilizing your bottles, by the way. You'd have to autoclave them to sterilize them. The difference between sterilization and sanitization is a matter of degree. Sterilization is 100% destruction of microbes. Sanitization achieves a reduction of living microbes sufficient to retard spoilage for a long time.

 

[saucebag]

thanks

good call...i am at work, at a pharma company...we sterilize....i need to stop working and get my head in the wine game here...

so campden is good to lessen oxidation...thats a great reason not to use anything else then

 

[Runningwolf]

Meta doesn't need rinsed and a fer sanitizers will leave residue in the bottle or on other bottles as you place them on the bottling tree.

 

[Turock]

Meta is your best bet for sanitizing all equipment before allowing it to contact your wine.

You have to be careful with iodine based sanitizers, like iodophor, because using it improperly can bring out chlorophenols which give a medicinal flavor to wine.

 

[milbrosa]

You have to be careful with iodine based sanitizers, like iodophor, because using it improperly can bring out chlorophenols which give a medicinal flavor to wine.

Iodophor doesn't do that. Chlorophenols can result from using bleach. There is no risk of off-flavors from using Iodophors. You use it and drain it without rinsing, just as you would with metabisulfite.

 

[Turock]

Chlorine and iodine based cleaners can BOTH produce chlorophenols

 

[jswordy]

Haha, lemme throw a wrench in here. ::

Put your bottles in the dishwasher, set it on HOT, run it a full cycle, remove when dried and bottle.

I do not do this because I am a scaredy-cat, but I have two friends who have never used any other method and their wines are fine even after a year.

 

[Turock]

Actually js you are correct. Many winemakers do that.

In our process, the wine bottles are cleaned many months ahead because I don't like used bottles sitting around unwashed. So at bottling, we rinse them and then let them sit in a meta bath for a few minutes before filling.

Many dishwashers also have a sanitize cycle, and you can use that before bottling, if you wish.

Any process you use is fine if it works for you. But some sanitizers need to be well rinsed--like the chlorine or iodine based cleaners---so you don't have problems. You are always safe with meta because no rinsing or drying is required. It's much easier to use and is one thing you always have around.

 

[Julie]

Chlorine and iodine based cleaners can BOTH produce chlorophenols

The iodophor is a no rinse sanitizer. The chlorophenols would be produce if you do not follow instructions and use more iodophor than what the instructions say.

I have used iodophor for sanitizing for about 4 years and my husband has been making beer for 6 years and that is what he uses, never have we had a problem.

Again, mix it per the instructions.

 

[Midwest Vintner]

We use sulfites in the winery and have tried a few different things when we did home wine making.

Best method, IMO, to keep things clean.
1) Clean all instruments, brushes, wands, tubing, etc. that has any build up or stain with dawn. Good ole elbow grease and the right cleaning tools are best (soft brushes if necessary).
2)If it is mostly clean, like something used to stir wine. Rinse with as hot of water as possible. Get any soap or bubbles out of the tanks, etc.
3)Clean with sulfite solution thoroughly.
4)Set it up to where it will air dry as quickly as possible.

We do this BEFORE we use anything and AFTER to eliminate any possibility of contamination. Wiping down containers, surfaces (even the floor) until they are very clean is always good practice.

 

[milbrosa]

Chlorine and iodine based cleaners can BOTH produce chlorophenols

Turock, would you please produce some evidence to support your claim that the use of Iodophors may result in the production of chlorophenols? I am not a chemist or a professional brewer or winemaker, but I respectfully believe you are mistaken. I have not been able to find either scientific or anecdotal evidence to support that belief in over six years of casual searching. In fact, the most common recommendation offered on beer brewing forums to people who complain of chlorophenol defects in beer is to use Iodophor or Star San rather than household bleach as a sanitizer.

To be clear, the question here is whether Iodophor-based sanitizers produce chlorophenols. We are not discussing iodine-based cleaners.

 

[ibglowin]

I would like to see that link as well if it exist.

Pretty darn sure Chlorophenols only result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (such as bleach) with phenol compounds found in wine and even beer and have very low taste thresholds.

To be clear, the question here is whether Iodophor-based sanitizers produce chlorophenols. We are not discussing iodine-based cleaners.

 

[Turock]

It was in a white paper I was reading on medicinal flavors in wine. We never use bleach--sometimes you're tempted to use it but it's real hard rinsing all the bleach off unless you're able to rub the surface. Best not to use it but some young winemakers don't know they shouldn't.

That paper emphasized IMPROPER use of iodophor. So as was said earlier--if you use it, follow the directions and don't over use.

 

[jswordy]

We use sulfites in the winery and have tried a few different things when we did home wine making.

Best method, IMO, to keep things clean.
1) Clean all instruments, brushes, wands, tubing, etc. that has any build up or stain with dawn. Good ole elbow grease and the right cleaning tools are best (soft brushes if necessary).
2)If it is mostly clean, like something used to stir wine. Rinse with as hot of water as possible. Get any soap or bubbles out of the tanks, etc.
3)Clean with sulfite solution thoroughly.
4)Set it up to where it will air dry as quickly as possible.

We do this BEFORE we use anything and AFTER to eliminate any possibility of contamination. Wiping down containers, surfaces (even the floor) until they are very clean is always good practice.

I would completely agree with this, and I practice what I preach.

1.) The wine does not leave the bottle without me immediately afterward washing it out with water. The drained bottle is then stored neck down in a case box to finish drying. It is brushed with nonfoaming cleaner and sanitized before refilling, a super-easy job if it has been rinsed immediately after the last wine left it.

2.) The wine does not leave the carboy without me immediately afterward washing it out with sterilant/cleaner, and then leaving a cleaner solution in the bottom of the carboy until next use. The carboy is sanitized again before use.

3.) The primary buckets are washed to visual cleanliness and sterilant solution wiped on them immediately following the must leaving them, then allowed to dry. The next must does not enter the bucket unless it has first been washed again with sterilant solution. The stirring spoon is sanitized before each stirring and cleaned afterward.

4.) Utensils, wine thieves, tubing, stoppers, caps, hydrometers, etc. are all cleaned to visual cleanliness immediately after use, then subjected to sterilant solution before the next use. All utensils are impermiable plastic, glass or stainless. Stoppers are handled carefully when off the carboy. When opening a carboy for racking or whatever, I leave the airlock on and set the stopper upright in a dish of sterilant for re-use.

4.) I wash my hands and sterilize them with solution before beginning any operation.

5.) I do not use unsterilized equipment on successive batches of wine. Everything is, at minimum, rinsed throughly to visual cleanliness and sanitized before being used on the next carboy. Cuts cross-contamination chances to near-zero.

I know folks who leave the empty carboy sit around with lees in it, leave their dirty utensils around, etc., and then make a mad dash to clean everything immediately before starting a new batch. It would seem that would make it so much harder to clean and imposes a lot of work just before an operation that already will be labor intensive, like starting new musts or bottling. I've seen wine equipment before that was green from algae growth...eeew.

Like I said here earlier, I am a scaredy-cat about infecting the wine, plus I really don't want to work that hard to make wine, so I see the benefits of taking these little actions along the way and how they save tons of work later on. So far, so good.

 

[robie]

Like I said here earlier, I am a scaredy-cat about infecting the wine, plus I really don't want to work that hard to make wine, so I see the benefits of taking these little actions along the way and how they save tons of work later on. So far, so good.

I don't think you are being a scaredy-cat. The more things one does correctly (carefully), the less likely one is to have a problem.

 

[jswordy]

I don't think you are being a scaredy-cat. The more things one does correctly (carefully), the less likely one is to have a problem.

Thanks Robie; it comes from being told I am doing too much overkill in my winemaking processes. I probably could cut some corners, but then I am increasing risks. I know people who make perfectly good wine under conditions I would not allow; I guess I am just wine-risk-averse.

 

[Auburn-Bob]

I started using bleach to sanitize my equipment, then I switched over to a solution of potassium permanganate KMnO4 I bought on eBay. The strong color lets me know if it's rinsed. No innocent sulfites were destroyed to make any of my wines.

 

[Runningwolf]

CAUTION....keep bleech out of the wine room.

 

[slh]

I use the dishwasher too, but....

Haha, lemme throw a wrench in here. ::

Put your bottles in the dishwasher, set it on HOT, run it a full cycle, remove when dried and bottle.

I do not do this because I am a scaredy-cat, but I have two friends who have never used any other method and their wines are fine even after a year.

I have a sanitizing feature in my dishwasher too and I always run my bottles through before rinsing with iodophor solution (1 capful or shy TB full per 2-1/2 gallons H20). I have been sorely tempted to skip the iodophor, though and just bottle straight from the dishwasher (after cooling) because I've had a consistent problem with a chemical taste in all my wines. I've been taught to be a sanitation freak and I'm beginning to see that Less is very possibly More.