Ramping up to big batches

[WVMountaineerJack]

I have heard ramping up from doing 5 gallon batches in your basement to doing a 500 gallon batch is not just adding 100 times everything. What are the considerations going from a small batch to a bigger one say in a big stainless steel fermentor?

WVMJ

 

[sour_grapes]

I have no expertise in this, but I am sure heat management becomes a bigger issue (due to the different ratio of surface area to volume).

 

[JohnT]

I would say that much is the same, it is just a whole LOT more work and areas of concern are more intense, such as ...


CO2 Management,
Temperature Management,
Space management,
Sanitation
COST OF EQUIPMENT!!!!!

 

[salcoco]

JohnT is correct. the same measurement and additives at 5 gallons apply per gallon at 500. Management of your equipment resources becomes the problem. racking pumps for example. sanitation of the bulk wine. bottling and filtering also become equipment concerns. all can be done just be diligent and have a plan. Best is visit a winery that has large batches and pick his brain.

 

[JohnT]

Just to explain further...

CO2 Management - Ventalation is important to evac the huge amounts of CO2 that is produced,

Temperature Management - A lot more heat is generated at large sizes. Most large wineries use glycol-jacketed tanks to control temperature

Space management Bigger tanks, bigger eqip, and the more space you need to just get around,


Also I would add the legal fees. At 500 gallons, you are beyond the federal legal limit for the home winemaker. In all likelihood, you will need a license to manufacture and distribute. Depending on your area, this could cost $$$.


Bottom line, it mostly comes down to amount of work, space, and (most importantly) amount of money.

 

[Runningwolf]

Ditto to all the above responses. The next question is where are you doing this. You mentioned your basement but I have yet to see a basement you could fit a 500g tank in through the doors even if it is a walk out one. Maybe if you had double doors. Will you have two tanks for racking purposes? Unless you go with a VCT you'll have topping up concerns. Racking; are your drains capable of handling the sludge. What about cold stabilizing? I think 100-200 gallons would be a lot more manageable as long as you have a pump for racking.

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

More along the lines of a guy in his basement has made a bunch of small 5 gallon batches, runs into a someone who has Space and Financing and Connections for raw materials who wants to do a startup. At this point more interested in the considerations of going from the skills of making a 5 gallon batch to the adaptations to make a 500 gallon batch.

How about starters? Do you just dump a bigger bag of yeast on top or make a 5 gallon starter for a big batch?

I figured heat dissapation would be an issue, do the commercial tanks also have some kind of circulation inside to keep things moving around?

CO2 vents to outside, check!

Liscenscing issues not my problem.

With such big batches how do you know you are pulling a representitive sample when you want to do a gravity check or pH?

How would you mix thick syrupy stuff like malt extracts in without heating?

Curious as to even what kind of questions have to be asked when ramping up.

WVMJ

 

[salcoco]

actually most tanks available are in the 1000 liter size to make things more practicable. Multiple tanks can thus be accommodated.
as far as yeast , hydrate the yeast as you would for any fermentation. I always used Go-Ferm and Fermaid-K. 20ml water per gallon, 1.23 grams of Go-Ferm and 1 Gram of yeast. We made 3-4 liter batches blended with a hand blender. pitched yeast once proper temperature. addition of Fermaid-k follows per protocol. you keep the winery cool either with AC or low heat in winter. heat dissipation was not a real big problem. white wine does benefit from a glycol jacket however.
Proper mixing will insure a rep sample for Ph and sg measurements. if concerned take samples at various locations of the must in bin fermentation.

I would suggest you visit a winery and view and ask questions on how they handle larger batches.

 

[WI_Wino]

Some other random thoughts:

- punch downs of the cap, is manual effort still easy enough with 500 gallons? Or does it require specialized equipment? I don't know. Also how to remove it to press it?

- yeast autolysis becomes more of an issue with bigger batches (more weight pushing down on the yeast)

- bottling and packaging. 500 gallons is ~2500 bottles or ~208 cases. That's a lot of corks to insert and labels to apply.

 

[salcoco]

we fermented in bins the same as used for harvest. they can take about 1200lbs of grapes. Punch down is manual , punch down tools are available for purchase or you can make your own. as the bin is only 2-3 ft deep punch down is simple.
removal of must after fermentation is best done with a must pump into the press.
I am not sure what yeast autolysis versus weight of must means. never had a problem
Corking machine air operated are available. also labeling machines that require labels on a roll can be obtained.
go visit a winery.

 

[WI_Wino]

we fermented in bins the same as used for harvest. they can take about 1200lbs of grapes. Punch down is manual , punch down tools are available for purchase or you can make your own. as the bin is only 2-3 ft deep punch down is simple.
removal of must after fermentation is best done with a must pump into the press.
I am not sure what yeast autolysis versus weight of must means. never had a problem
Corking machine air operated are available. also labeling machines that require labels on a roll can be obtained.
go visit a winery.

Obviously there are solutions for every thing we are talking about, the point is for the OP to consider them and determine what would be the best solution for his situation.

Google yeast, autolysis. It's the process of the yeast breaking down after fermentation and creating off flavors. It's a much bigger deal in tall, skinny fermenters where there is a lot pressure on the yeast cake. Is that a problem for the OP? I don't know but it's something to consider when scaling up from 5 gallon batches.

 

[manvsvine]

500 gallons is still pretty small scale. 4.5 tonnes of grapes

most little wineries would ferment reds in half tonne picking bins and do punch downs manually. its only ten bins to punch down. and at this size fermenter heat build up is not a problem.
since you need a forklift for handleing these bins , you don't need a must pump. a used forklift with a bin tipper is cheaper than a must pump , and you can rent these for even less for the harvest season . you can use the bin tipper for crush and press filling

a half tonne capacity press would be fine and a crusher stemmer that can do 2-3 tonnes an hour would be fine. my home one does 1 tonne per hour , if your harvest and crush is spread over a couple days this would be fine but a 3 tonne per hour would be better.

flex tank cubes could be used for fermenting whites or doing mlf in on reds. a vacuum pump or a forklift can be used for racking ( a small 1 tonne forklift is a winemakers best friend in a small scale winery)

mixing nutrients can be done on a by the bin basis , your home blender is perfect for this , and a half gallon starter culture per fermenting bin is the way to go for your yeast.

and if you have lots of hands and some time you can use smaller gear, we make 300 gallons per year with a 1 tonne an hour crusher stemmer , an 80 litre bladder press , 55 gallon brute bins and 4 small tanks and a slew of demijohns and carboys .

going to another 200 gallons would not be a big step up, just need more time and storage capacity. ie crush would be two days instead of 1 and press would also be two days with 4 people working . no fork lift , no must pump. just sweat equity .
we bottle the 300 gallons in a day with 2 enolmatics , 2 Italian floor corkers and 6 people , two on enolmatics , 2 on corkers , 2 feeding empties in and taking full cases away , rotating positions every hour.

 

[mgmarty]

Thanks for that post. What a wealth of information.


Baco Noir and Seyval Blanc in Utah

 

[altavino]

"Google yeast, autolysis. It's the process of the yeast breaking down after fermentation and creating off flavors. It's a much bigger deal in tall, skinny fermenters where there is a lot pressure on the yeast cake. Is that a problem for the OP? I don't know but it's something to consider when scaling up from 5 gallon batches. "


not an issue durring active ferment and racking off the gross lees after pressing eliminates this as a problem.