Quick Chromatography Question

[SarahRides]

So I just spilled a little dot of one of the wines in the middle of my paper (haven't put it in the Developer solution yet). Will this screw up the final paper? Should I start a new one?

 

[Runningwolf]

Sarah you're fine. The drop is not in line with the others. It'll be interesting to see how it developes. You must have been reading my mind. I also started one for my wines today.

 

[SarahRides]

Ok, thanks, done! I can't wait to see what it looks like when it's dry!

 

[Runningwolf]

Sarah how did you make out? As you can see with mine below the mlf did not go anywhere. It has been about 10 weeks and I'm giving up on it. This was Chilean wines and I think it was heavily dosed with sulphite preventing the mlf. I'm kicking myself for not testing it when I got it but testing it now some of it is as high as 40 ppm. The juice I added the raisins to tested out at 12 ppm. Neither one of them budged. I racked last night and added oak.

What would others do familier with MLF at this point. Should I continue to monitor it or add meta to the wines that are at 12 ppm now to protect them?

 

[SarahRides]

I was just about to post mine! Yours is much prettier than mine. Just to explain it, the first 3 are my acid references (?), then you have the wine samples. The first one on the left is from my batch that I innoculated with a dry MLF culture (from Presque Isle), the middle one was innoculated with a liquid MLF culture (bought from my LHBS) and the third is one that I did not innoculate with anything. (just a gallon of it). I'm guessing the dry culture is done, the liquid and non-MLF look like they are in the middle like yours are. It is also kind of hard to see the spots, but that is my best guess. I never added any sulfite to it, nor do I have anything to test it with, so I have no clue what the levels are.

 

[Runningwolf]

Sarah what are each of the wines.

Mine is Chardonnay, Melbec, zinfandel, Carmenere and Cab Franc.

 

[SarahRides]

It is all malbec, I have 2 carboys (6.5 gallons each), one of them was innoculated with a dry MLF culture, the other one was innoculated with a liquid MLF culture. I also have a left over one gallon jug which I didn't put any MLF culture in. I just did it on one type, my first batch from fresh grapes.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Sarah how did you make out? As you can see with mine below the mlf did not go anywhere. It has been about 10 weeks and I'm giving up on it. This was Chilean wines and I think it was heavily dosed with sulphite preventing the mlf. I'm kicking myself for not testing it when I got it but testing it now some of it is as high as 40 ppm. The juice I added the raisins to tested out at 12 ppm. Neither one of them budged. I racked last night and added oak.

What would others do familier with MLF at this point. Should I continue to monitor it or add meta to the wines that are at 12 ppm now to protect them?

10 weeks at what temperature? I would raise to 75 degrees and stir every other day. and give it another 30 days. You have a good degree of lactic indicated. You didn't start with that. So your MLF has to be working to see these results.
Malvina

 

[Runningwolf]

Thanks Malvina!

 

[SarahRides]

Thank you! I think I might rack over my "dry" MLF today, and leave the "liquid" MLF and check it again in another month or so. Looks like the dry culture worked a lot faster! Other than the cultures, the 2 carboys were identical. It looks as though my little one gallon batch that I didn't add any culture to is also undergoing secondary fermentation too.

I think in the fall I'll probably do MLF on a few different wines, if I'm starting to get the hang of it! I'm thinking I might try a chardonnay from grapes, and add both the malolactic culture to it and try battonage.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Thank you! I think I might rack over my "dry" MLF today, and leave the "liquid" MLF and check it again in another month or so. Looks like the dry culture worked a lot faster! Other than the cultures, the 2 carboys were identical. It looks as though my little one gallon batch that I didn't add any culture to is also undergoing secondary fermentation too.

I think in the fall I'll probably do MLF on a few different wines, if I'm starting to get the hang of it! I'm thinking I might try a chardonnay from grapes, and add both the malolactic culture to it and try battonage.

I am not sure of what you are referring to but your first sample looks pretty complete not so for the two on the right.

For me I like to work in a different direction. I use the Accuvin test strips during MLF to monitor progress. Since it is a quantitative test it gives you a better idea of acid in a number form although you still have to make that determination by eye so it is far from exact. However when you get to the point of no color change on the strip you can assume you done. It is then when I do a chromotagraphy test which is qualitative in nature and the lack of Malic spots or even trails leading to the Lactic area is good conformation the MLF is complete. Ease of monitoring during and good conformation when the assumption is it is complete is the method I use.

I find that when it comes to MLF problems repeat themselves . First everyone is impatient and the temps are too low. Measure the Wine Temperature not the Air Temp keep it at 72-75. Use nutrient. Stir 2-3 times a week. Use a very bright flashlight and look carefully in the neck of the carboy for the tiniest bubbles crawling up the neck. Don't expect the airlock to bubble.
Malvina

 

[Runningwolf]

10 weeks at what temperature? I would raise to 75 degrees and stir every other day. and give it another 30 days. You have a good degree of lactic indicated. You didn't start with that. So your MLF has to be working to see these results.
Malvina

Thanks Malvina. My temp was at about 68* but that was when th ac wasn't running. I did put my heat belts on and I also see the tiny bubbles you're talking about.

Sarah I'll keep both of you posted on results.

 

[SarahRides]

I plan on racking the one that appears finished this weekend, the other one I'll test again in another month or so (it has been working for about 5 weeks now). I can still see the little bubbles in both of them, even without a flashlight. Since the other one is done, I'm guessing it's probably just still degassing itself.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

(it has been working for about 5 weeks now). I can still see the little bubbles in both of them, even without a flashlight.

think in terms of 90 days at 72 degrees . THEN get concerned. However there are ways to shorten this time frame.
Malvina

 

[SarahRides]

think in terms of 90 days at 72 degrees . THEN get concerned.
Malvina

I'm not really in any rush, I'm probably going to let them sit in the carboys at least 18 months. Right now our basement is 75 degrees.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

I'm not really in any rush, I'm probably going to let them sit in the carboys at least 18 months. Right now our basement is 75 degrees.

While you are not in any rush you can't leave the wine for 18 months at 75 degrees and you can't leave it that long without So2. What I was trying to say was when doing a MLF after the Primary Fermentation there is plenty of CO2 to protect the wine and you can keep the temps in the 70s to get the ML done quickly. You can do MLF in the high 60s but it takes longer assuming you don't have a problematic wine. A few degrees difference adds up to weeks in difference of completion time. While not getting into an esthetic argument. the quicker you get it done and protected with So2 the better. Another thing that really helps but flies in the face of the Fairy Dust Sprinklers is to culture your ML bacteria a few days before inoculating. By doing this and keeping Temps of the wine not the air temp of the basement at 72 you can get MLF over in 4 -6 weeks. One other thing not all ML bacteria are equal. VP 41 and Enolferm Alpha are best for speed and have parameters that can handle wines which stretch the limits of ML Bacteria. Some others are really crummy.
Malvina

 

[ibglowin]

Dang, they are sure proud of that stuff!

One other thing not all ML bacteria are equal. VP 41 and Enolferm Alpha are best for speed and have parameters that can handle wines which stretch the limits of ML Bacteria. Some others are really crummy.
Malvina

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Dang, they are sure proud of that stuff!

Yes but it works unlike so many that give Winemakers fits. a Packet of Alpha treats 66 gallons is about 22 dollars the problem comes in when you only have 5 or 10 gallons to treat. I have never tried this but it is worth a try. You can take out of the packet what you need and vacuum seal the rest and freeze it immediately and see if it works in a year. I think it will but you have to work really fast on the resealing. It is kept frozen anyway and should be shipped to you in that manner over night with ice packs. If you see some stuff laying around at the lHBS pass up on it. Freshness dates and below 0 is the way it should be stored. You read more problems winemakers have regarding MLF and most of the times it all boils down to stale or weak strains of ML Bacteria, and improper temperature. It is really not that a big a deal to accomplish. If you do it correctly.
Malvina

 

[ibglowin]

May just have to give it a try. I used CH16 last year with good results. I had some high brix grapes and ended up with a couple of 8G batches of Merlot with a pH ~3.4. It took 3 months to finish but the harvest was so late last year in CA and by the time they were ready it was mid to late November and the winery was 65 so it was slow but trotted to a finish.

I did just what you mentioned, I had some left over CH16 from the year before that I only used about half. I put it into a freezer bag and refroze it. I mixed it with the new stuff so no real way to tell if it was viable really but all 7 carboys took off and were happily producing tiny bubbles within a few days. The Opti-Malo helped as well I am sure.

 

[SarahRides]

While you are not in any rush you can't leave the wine for 18 months at 75 degrees and you can't leave it that long without So2.

Not to worry, I only meant that I wasn't planning on bottling it until it had spent at least 18 months in the carboy to age, I am planning on racking and adding sulfite when it's finished with the MLF. When fall and winter comes, the basement will be about 60-65 degrees. It only gets to 70-75 for about 6-8 weeks during the hottest parts of the summer. (that's when I do a lot of my fermenting of country wines) It is still the coolest part of the house year round, there isn't too much I can do about those temps. (we don't have central air, just a couple of ac units in the windows of our bedrooms). I haven't added any nutrient to it for the bacteria, I may look into it for when I try it in the fall. I'll probably order it online somewhere, my LHBS didn't even have any of the ML culture (they dont carry it), so they ordered it from Whitelabs, so I doubt they will have the ML nutrient! Thanks for the help Malvina! I'm enjoying this whole process, and with everyone's help it's going a lot more smoothly.