Questions for the wine makers

[tonyt]

Loose lid no air lock.
Transfer to secondary for two weeks rest and finish fermenting.
Almost always Sorbate, usually at clearing.

 

[cmason1957]

Please answer for me...just curious...

1. Do you ferment in a closed bucket with airlock
2. Do you ferment in an open bucket with cloth,etc cover.

1...Do you ferment to dry in primary.
2...Do you move to secondary and let it go dry are complete ferment.

1. Do you add sorbate before it clears.
2. Do you add sorbate after it clears.

Ferment closed or open. For me it really depends on what I am doing, reds I almost always do open. Whites I usually do closed with an airlock, they just seem to oxidize so easily.

I usually move to secondary at about 1.01 or lower.

If I am doing a kit, I generally follow the directions. Most of the other wines I make are dry and I don't add sorbate. For the ones I do add sorbate I add it whenever I feel like it. Generally it isn't fully clear. Oh and I generally put the sorbate and kmeta in the bottom of a Carboy and rack the wine onto it.

 

[BernardSmith]

Depends on what you're making.

Trying to ferment a warm, red grape wine, in a closed bucket with an airlock & you'll be repainting your ceiling

Trying to cool ferment something like a traditional mead or Riesling grape wine, in an open bucket, all the way to dry, and you may get some oxidation - maybe not enough to change the color, but it will affect the flavor a touch.

If you rack to secondary to finish the fermentation, do you take the sediment with it, in hopes of fermenting dry, or do you leave most of the sediment behind to see if you can 'hang'/'stick' the fermentation for some residual sweetness? The latter doesnt always work, but does sometimes. I dont advise it for new winemakers.

The only time I could see any reason to add sorbate to a cloudy wine, would be in an instance where you're making a high-flavor, low-alcohol, sweeter wine/cider. If you're in secondary, and you want to add more flavor layers (fruits added in secondary have a chance at retaining natural flavors and sugars for residual sweetness when the yeast are starting to decline, old meadmakers trick), then sorbate may help. Other than that, always added to cleared wines.

That's part of the reason why you find so many differing opinions. Part of it is the outcome they're hoping to achieve.. The other part is the date at which they posted the information.. Wine making science and knowledge is developing so fast that it's difficult for those of us who are trying, to even keep up with it.

I have some 'general' things that I do, but to make every batch exactly the same way, regardless of flavor, style and approach.. It's limiting yourself, in my eyes.

I agree with Manley. Different techniques result in different outcomes and different wine makers come to wine making from different approaches. Mead makers focus on certain aspects of the process and have specific concerns and not others and beer makers focus of different aspects of the process and have different concerns and not some, and those who make wine from fruit and grapes have concerns that come from yet different concerns. For example, mead makers talk about degassing in the primary but wine makers on this forum might refer to this same activity as aeration. Mead makers are not nearly as concerned about oxidation as wine makers so those different concerns help shape how different fermenters work with their yeast and sugars.

 

[LoneStarLori]

open lid with cloth
dry in primary
sorbate with clearing agent as per kit directions. Which, i probably won't do anymore since I have learned it's not always necessary. Why sorbate if it's dry?

Now with that said, I would have to open a can of worms and suggest that as long as it's not dry, no matter what vessel it's in, that would still be considered primary. (At least this is what I have read and it makes sense to me)

 

[Deezil]

Now with that said, I would have to open a can of worms and suggest that as long as it's not dry, no matter what vessel it's in, that would still be considered primary. (At least this is what I have read and it makes sense to me)

The confusion in this can of worms, lies in wording;

There's a primary vessel and a secondary vessel - open top fermenters & glass carboys, for one example.

Then there's what the yeast do - primary fermentation being aerobic, or when the yeast actually consume and use oxygen to their benefit; and secondary fermentation, when the yeast go anaerobic, and no longer need oxygen to maintain health.

So you can rack TO a secondary vessel, before the yeast are IN secondary fermentation - and this is when we see airlocks get clogged and 6th grade science experiment volcanoes

or

You can rack from a primary vessel to a secondary vessel, after the yeast have shifted from aerobic fermentation to anaerobic fermentation - this is letting it go dry, in the bucket

 

[LoneStarLori]

I agree, it's in the wording. The way the question was posed I take it to mean that #2 implies that it is still in aerobic.

"1...Do you ferment to dry in primary.
2...Do you move to secondary and let it go dry are complete ferment."

 

[ShawnDTurner]

Ferment in closed vessel with airlock. Ferment to dry in primary. Add sorbate only if backsweeten, but allow wine to clear first. Cheers1

 

[eblasmn9]

For my reds I ferment to between 1.020 and 1.010 in primary with loose lid.
I transfer to secondary around day 20-22. I stabilize with kmeta without
adding sorbate or clearing agents. I bulk age between 6 to 9 months with a ride in the the vadai for 3 to 4 months somewhere in there. With white wines I pretty much follow the directions using a 5-20-40-90 day schedule(primary for 5 days, secondary for 15 days,20 days clearing, 50 days in bulk.
All that said these are general rules. As long as the wine is done fermenting and I get the wine stabilized at day 20-25 and keep the proper sulfites in the wine at 3 month intervals, I don't sweat several days one way or another on all the other steps.

 

[wineforfun]

So those of you that transfer it before it is dry, why do you do that and not just let it run dry in the primary?

 

[BernardSmith]

The confusion in this can of worms, lies in wording;

There's a primary vessel and a secondary vessel - open top fermenters & glass carboys, for one example.

Then there's what the yeast do - primary fermentation being aerobic, or when the yeast actually consume and use oxygen to their benefit; and secondary fermentation, when the yeast go anaerobic, and no longer need oxygen to maintain health.

So you can rack TO a secondary vessel, before the yeast are IN secondary fermentation - and this is when we see airlocks get clogged and 6th grade science experiment volcanoes

or

You can rack from a primary vessel to a secondary vessel, after the yeast have shifted from aerobic fermentation to anaerobic fermentation - this is letting it go dry, in the bucket

I think you have hit something on the head about how different folk use the same terms for different things. I say that because I would have said that primary fermentation is what the yeast does and secondary fermentation is what happens when bacteria change malic acid to lactic acid. There is the primary fermenter and the secondary fermenter but for me the primary fermentation is still going on in the secondary fermenter, it's just that the secondary fermenter seals out the air. That does not make the fermentation different.
Also , I am not sure of the bio-chemistry but I think yeast may need oxygen to reproduce. I don't think they need oxygen to ferment. Someone who knows about yeast physiology can correct me but I think you really want to most if not all the reproduction to take place very early so that the sugar the yeast consume is transformed into alcohol rather than used up as part of their reproductive process leaving you with very little alcohol as a by-product

 

[jamesngalveston]

good question....this is why I would like to know..considering the 2 phases of ferment.
I did itendical batches..
one ferment to dry in open bucket ..took 7 days.
one moved to secondary at 1.010 took 17 days.
no difference in color
no difference in taste.. you couldnt tell them apart.
not advising..just saying

 

[jamesngalveston]

maybe with grapes its diffrent...i dont make wine from grapes..

 

[StoneCreek]

So those of you that transfer it before it is dry, why do you do that and not just let it run dry in the primary?

I second that question. Not because I have an opinion but because I'm learning.

 

[Elmer]

Please answer for me...just curious...

1. Do you ferment in a closed bucket with airlock
2. Do you ferment in an open bucket with cloth,etc cover.

1...Do you ferment to dry in primary.
2...Do you move to secondary and let it go dry are complete ferment.

1. Do you add sorbate before it clears.
2. Do you add sorbate after it clears.

Ferment with a cloth over the top, or the bucket top loosely sitting atop

1...Do you ferment to dry in primary. -Only with DB/SP
2...Do you move to secondary and let it go dry are complete ferment. kits (as instructed)

Sorbate before it clears!

 

[Scott]

So those of you that transfer it before it is dry, why do you do that and not just let it run dry in the primary?

IMO it is easier to remove a stopper to verify completion than to unsnap the bucket lid. Also as a bonus you can watch the air lock working!!

Many different ways to get to the same spot.

 

[Deezil]

So those of you that transfer it before it is dry, why do you do that and not just let it run dry in the primary?

Depends on what you're making.

Trying to cool ferment something like a traditional mead or Riesling grape wine, in an open bucket, all the way to dry, and you may get some oxidation - maybe not enough to change the color, but it will affect the flavor a touch.

If you rack to secondary to finish the fermentation, do you take the sediment with it, in hopes of fermenting dry, or do you leave most of the sediment behind to see if you can 'hang'/'stick' the fermentation for some residual sweetness? The latter doesnt always work, but does sometimes. I dont advise it for new winemakers.

I think you have hit something on the head about how different folk use the same terms for different things. I say that because I would have said that primary fermentation is what the yeast does and secondary fermentation is what happens when bacteria change malic acid to lactic acid (1). There is the primary fermenter and the secondary fermenter but for me the primary fermentation is still going on in the secondary fermenter (2), it's just that the secondary fermenter seals out the air. That does not make the fermentation different.
Also , I am not sure of the bio-chemistry but I think yeast may need oxygen to reproduce (3). I don't think they need oxygen to ferment (4). Someone who knows about yeast physiology can correct me but I think you really want to most if not all the reproduction to take place very early so that the sugar the yeast consume is transformed into alcohol rather than used up as part of their reproductive process leaving you with very little alcohol as a by-product

1 - This wouldn't technically be 'secondary fermentation', but instead 'malolactic fermentation'. I've seen it described both ways (depending on the date of the publication), but with a need for clarity, that's how I've always had in my head.

2 - By the time the yeast makes it to the secondary fermenter, they are already in anaerobic fermentation (secondary fermentation), because, as you noted, yeast only need oxygen for reproduction / cell division.

3 & 4 - 'Tis true, but where do we draw the line on when they go anaerobic? There's a multitude of generations of yeast, all working within the same environment, so to call it anaerobic when the first generation does so, would be too early, and waiting for the last generation might be too late. So the final generations, to an extent, would ideally have to rely on a certain amount of dissolved oxygen to live a normal, healthy, life.

You'll read, especially in 'white papers', about yeast having a 'lag phase'. This 'lag phase' is actually the mass-majority of the reproduction taking place, and the fermentation that follows is generally a large majority of the yeast that will ever live in the wine, all working together at once. The yeast colony will hit a "critical mass", at which point they shift from cell division to digestion of sugars.

This means we could theoretically rack to a closed/secondary vessel, after the lag phase, if we could separate the liquid from the solids (and stand the loss in quality, due to leaving behind all the goodies still locked within said-solids) but thats typically not the case (not only because of the goodies, but also because of the strength/rate of the fermentation at this point).

So we end up, attempting to find the happy-medium between allowing the solids enough time to disintegrate, the yeast enough time to multiply to get the job done, and racking before things start to oxidize or get infected (without being so-soon as to pop the airlock off the carboy & volcano). Hence the large 'racking to secondary (vessel)' range - everything between 1.040 & dry.

So, to be 'technically correct':

1 - There's two vessel types - primary / open-top fermenters, secondary / closed-top fermenters

2 - There's three fermentation types - primary / aerobic, secondary / anaerobic, and malolactic fermentation

3 - Winemaker's cant all agree on anything except, "I'll have another glass"

 

[jamesngalveston]

deezil, out of everything I have learned here...

3 - Winemaker's cant all agree on anything except, "I'll have another glass"

I learned that the first week......

ohhh and deezil....sorry to say but new orleans aint going to rest on their laurels this go round......lol
I know you a hawks fan.

 

[BernardSmith]

good question....this is why I would like to know..considering the 2 phases of ferment.
I did itendical batches..
one ferment to dry in open bucket ..took 7 days.
one moved to secondary at 1.010 took 17 days.
no difference in color
no difference in taste.. you couldnt tell them apart.
not advising..just saying

Good science needs good data. When you say "identical batches" are you saying that you made a single batch of must then divided it in two and pitched a single batch of yeast that you had rehydrated, allowed to reproduce and then divided it into two and pitched or are you saying that you made two SIMILAR batches and pitched two SIMILAR batches of yeast? If the first then your data are interesting. If the second then there could be many reasons for the different results. Whether you could or could not "tell them apart" may or may not be significant. When I was a kid, family and friends could not tell me and my brother apart but that did not mean that we were identical. ::

 

[jamesngalveston]

Should have clarified a bit.
I made a 6 gallon batch.. split it into two 3s.
added on pkg of red star pasteur red yeast to each
one went dry in the primary to .990
the second i moved to secondary at 1.010 and let it go to .990
both were cleared using same clearing agent
both were sorbated after they were clear

 

[GreginND]

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