ph question

[rhoffart]

Last weekend my Wife &amp; I went to our local Water2Wine and had a good chat with a great guy, some tasting and bought 4 - $20 bottles. I got to admit, we opened 3 bottles so far and was very impressed with 2 (1 red &amp; 1 white) but the 3<SUP>rd</SUP> was a white and it was weak … light and almost a watered down taste. Ran a ph test on that one and it came in at 4.0 (not sure what that means).
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I just tested the ph both MM kits I got going … just started bulk aging … and the Gur. was 3.2 and the Riesling was 3.3
<O></O>
Does anyone know what type (liter size) or quality kit W2W uses?
<O></O>
What is the finished ph level telling me? Willthe ph levelchange as it ages?


I have been sampling the ph level a lot of our store bought wines and they all come in between 3.1 – 3.4 (all whites)
<O></O>Thanks again … rick

 

[rhoffart]

One more question before bedtime ... If you are buying less then 100% juice kit ...does the ph level of the water you are adding affect the ending ph level of your wine?




I found this on the net:
More particularly, white wine grapes and musts should have a pH close to 3.2 (3.1 to 3.3). Red wine grapes or musts should have a pH of 3.3 to 3.4 with pH 3.55 as tops.

 

[vcasey]

I can't answer your questions, but I can tell you that the kit manufacturers have already balanced the kits and any changes you make could change the final outcome and void the warranty.
If you are concerned about the water you add to your kits just buy the all juice kits, they are about the same price.
VC

 

[JimCook]

Rick,


pH is the measure of the 'Power of Hydrogen Ions' which for all practical purposes measures the concentration of these ions in a given volume. Take hydrochloric acid, for example (HCl). It's a strong acid and many of the hydrogen ions dissociate, causing a lower pH/acidity. If you take a set amount of this acid and then dilute it with water, the concentration of those ions will become lower as there will be more volume. It's just like taking grape juice concentrate and adding water - it will become less concentrated.


The pH level should stay relatively consistent in wine over time, as in there may be small shifts, but nothing that should take the wine from 3.0 to 4.0, for example.


I don't believe that the statement you posted about pH is entirely accurate. I have tasted red wine that is wonderful that had a pH that was higher than 3.55. While there are recommended ranges, pH alone does not determine how a wine tastes. The total acidity of a wine comes into play on the acid side of things as well. Different acid profiles could result in a different pH result as each acid provides a different concentration of the hydrogen ions to the wine. I know that people have made blueberry wine (a fruit that is notorious for lower pH values) right around 3.0 pH and had it turn out great. Other grapes may have a higher pH value.


Wine is complex in the fact that there are many variable that come together to determine how it tastes or feels in your mouth.


- Jim

 

[rhoffart]

Rick,


pH is the measure of the 'Power of Hydrogen Ions' which for all practical purposes measures the concentration of these ions in a given volume. Take hydrochloric acid, for example (HCl). It's a strong acid and many of the hydrogen ions dissociate, causing a lower pH/acidity. If you take a set amount of this acid and then dilute it with water, the concentration of those ions will become lower as there will be more volume. It's just like taking grape juice concentrate and adding water - it will become less concentrated.


The pH level should stay relatively consistent in wine over time, as in there may be small shifts, but nothing that should take the wine from 3.0 to 4.0, for example.


I don't believe that the statement you posted about pH is entirely accurate. I have tasted red wine that is wonderful that had a pH that was higher than 3.55. While there are recommended ranges, pH alone does not determine how a wine tastes. The total acidity of a wine comes into play on the acid side of things as well. Different acid profiles could result in a different pH result as each acid provides a different concentration of the hydrogen ions to the wine. I know that people have made blueberry wine (a fruit that is notorious for lower pH values) right around 3.0 pH and had it turn out great. Other grapes may have a higher pH value.


Wine is complex in the fact that there are many variable that come together to determine how it tastes or feels in your mouth.


- Jim

Thanks Jim, I know very little about what I am talking about … I usually get into hobbies such as this one to try to figure out some of the tricks of the trade. If nothing else I will be a little more educated and will have a couple … ok a bunch of wine to drink.
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The only reason I was looking at this one part “the PH level”.

It appears to be true the lower the ph level:

- less chance of spoilage
- less sulfites needed
- higher acid level (a slight correlation to taste)

Please correct me if I am wrong … I have only been studding this for 4 weeks now.

My mind tell me if you take a 10 liter kit and add 13 liters of 4.0ph water it will be different then if you add 13 liters of 9.0 ph water. And yes this is just a question in my head not that I would make anything less the a 16 liter kit.

 

[vcasey]

Rick I think you are thinking too hard

!
VC

 

[JimCook]

Rick,


Yes, it is true that the lower the pH the less SO2 is needed to act a shield against oxidation. I've also heard from winemakers that a lower pH level can also help increase age-ability, although I don't know that this is the only factor in play here.


You are correct that if you mix two different pHs, the resulting liquid's comparative pHs will also vary. Do note that water is generally somewhere around the 7.0 range for pH. Distilled and deionized water would be the closest to 7.0, but you shouldn't be that far off with most tap water as well.


The correct comparison would be to measure your starting pH after dilution and proper mixing. It shouldn't change that much if you are usinga kit wine. These kit wines are so far from the original source that the pH adjustments should fall into the right range, as VC noted above. In essence, the kits are totally modified versions of a different mix of grape juice with the acid and sugar changed and adjusted. What does this mean for a kit winemaker - it means that it is hard to screw it up if following the directions and it also means that the product is pretty darned consistent. So, if you like a particular kit one year, you'll probably like it the next time you make it as the kit manufacturers are striving for that kind of residual purchase of a repeat customer.


Out of curiosity, did you test the total acidity of those wines as well?


One place where you could really get into the modification of pHs and total acidity is a foray into fruit/country winemaking, where you start with a raw material and that's about it. There are some excellent resources in the Fruit Wines category of this forum as well as elsewhere on the Internet.


- Jim

 

[rhoffart]

Rick I think you are thinking too hard

!
VC

Your not the first to tell me that

 

[rhoffart]

Out of curiosity, did you test the total acidity of those wines as well?


- Jim

No I did not. I measured ph with a ph meterand I measured free SO2 from a test strip found here:
http://www.galladechem.com/catalog/emd_teststrips/sulfite-test-strips-10-400-ppm-em-quant--100-pack-10013-1-emd.htm


Thanks for your help Jim ... I will put this one to bed for now.

 

[wctisue]

I went to our local Water2Wine and had a good chat with a great guy, some tasting and bought 4 - $20 bottles. I got to admit, we opened 3 bottles so far and was very impressed with 2 (1 red &amp; 1 white) but the 3<SUP>rd</SUP> was a white
<O></O>
Does anyone know what type (liter size) or quality kit W2W uses?
<O></O>
W2W uses the same kits that we do. When you go back be sure to find out the origin and size of the kit. For a while they mostly did Winexpert but I know they added the Cellarcraft line.


Great place to "try before you buy".


Hang around there and you'll see all the 6-gallon batches going that other customers have started.


Wayne

 

[rhoffart]

<O></O>
W2W uses the same kits that we do. When you go back be sure to find out the origin and size of the kit. For a while they mostly did Winexpert but I know they added the Cellarcraft line.
Wayne

Wayne, I agree it is a great place and the gentleman running the Boerne location was top notch.


I didn't want to be rude and flat out ask ... and he didn't jump to offer this info ... which I don't blame him, that is his business.


Thanks