Oak Chips vs. Oak Essence

[JoeCal1952]

Hello folks!
I actually wrote an article on how to use the FastFerment for wine making, but I have run into issues regarding the adding of the oak that comes with kits such as WineExpert. When I add the oak directly to the FastFerment, I run into problems with the chips clogging the valve at the bottom, and when I am ready to bottle, there are always some chips stuck in the bottle filler hose causing me grief. OK, This latest wine that I have not yet started is a Cabernet from WinExpert. I also ordered a mesh bag and a bottle of oak essence. I really want to use the oak that came with the kit, but there is no way to secure the mesh bag anyplace. If I just throw the bag into the wine, it will sink to the bottom and stop the lees from falling into the collection ball. If I tie a string around the mesh bag and wrap the string around the top of the vessel, when I put the lid on, there is an area there that is not completely air tight because of the string. So, after all that you have read, my question is, can I forego the oak chips completely, maybe add some tannin, then add the entire 4 oz. bottle of oak essence when it is time to bottle. I am not looking for an award winner here, just a good drinkable Cab. Oak cubes and spirals also have their own problems with the FastFerment. Sorry I bought it!
Advice???

 

[Kraffty]

How about a plastic bucket instead this time around. Maybe use the FastFerment as a secondary?
Mike

 

[sour_grapes]

I cannot recall your situation precisely: You do the entire alcoholic fermentation in the fastferment, but age in a carboy, right?

I would be tempted to use powdered tannin during fermentation (like FT Rouge). As I understand it, the oak (or tannin powder) during fermentation is sacrificial, rather than for flavor, so either should suffice. I would then add any desired oak to your aging vessel.

Just my thoughts!

 

[JoeCal1952]

How about a plastic bucket instead this time around. Maybe use the FastFerment as a secondary?
Mike

Sounds like a plan - I haven't started this batch yet so I have time to obtain a bucket. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[wineinmd]

Tape the string for the mesh bag to the inside of the FF.

 

[JoeCal1952]

I cannot recall your situation precisely: You do the entire alcoholic fermentation in the fastferment, but age in a carboy, right?

I would be tempted to use powdered tannin during fermentation (like FT Rouge). As I understand it, the oak (or tannin powder) during fermentation is sacrificial, rather than for flavor, so either should suffice. I would then add any desired oak to your aging vessel.

Just my thoughts!

Well, I had got in touch with the guy who invented this fastferment and he does the entire fermentation in the fastferment, no carboy. I figured he would know best since he created the original conical vessel, but I am having tons of issues with oak clogging the valve, and as I already stated, there is no place to tie a mesh bag without losing the ability to keep this vessel airtight. I have made all my wine by dropping the oak directly into the vessel. All wines turned out fine but there were bottling issues. A few pieces of oak would always get left behind somewhere in that valve, or stuck to the side of the vessel, and come out and clog the filler hose...

 

[JoeCal1952]

Tape the string for the mesh bag to the inside of the FF.

I thought of this as well and it is a good idea. Only problem I see with this is if the tape would come loose and everything fell into the wine. It gets pretty warm and moist all around the top of the fast ferment. I honestly don't see why this unit has to be air tight. You don't bulk age in it. It is designed to get the wine into the bottle quick and age in the bottle, so even oak chips probably won't be in there long enough to even help? Maybe wrapping the string around the top is the way to go - so it isn't as air tight as it should be. I really need to get a bucket or a carboy...Thanks for the help!

 

[Thig]

Have you tried fishing line, I can't imagine it would be thick enough to cause an air leak.

 

[JoeCal1952]

Have you tried fishing line, I can't imagine it would be thick enough to cause an air leak.

Well - there ya go! I probably have some 2 lb test in the garage. That is thin and wont break - It is worth a shot...Thanks a million!!! I will keep you all posted on this - It would be a shame to ruin a good Cab by using oak essence instead of chips, although I may still add some essence in at bottling. Have a great day!!!

 

[wineinmd]

Dental floss would probably work as well.

 

[JoeCal1952]

Dental floss would probably work as well.

Thanks again - I went with the fishing line. All looks good - By tomorrow morning the fermentation will have begun and then it is a waiting game. I think when I am all done, I am going to get a Carboy and use this for primary fermentation only, transfer to a carboy and age it, then back to the fastferment for easy bottling..I threw in some extra tannin as well.

What are your thoughts on using a yeast nutrient? I have fermaid K but never tried it and really don't know why I would need it???

 

[sour_grapes]

Well, I had got in touch with the guy who invented this fastferment and he does the entire fermentation in the fastferment, no carboy.

Fermentation, yes, but aging? I should think not. As I implied earlier, I am assuming you want to do the entire alcoholic fermentation (both primary and "secondary" fermentations) in the fastferment. However, you don't propose to age it in that vessel, do you?

 

[JoeCal1952]

Fermentation, yes, but aging? I should think not. As I implied earlier, I am assuming you want to do the entire alcoholic fermentation (both primary and "secondary" fermentations) in the fastferment. However, you don't propose to age it in that vessel, do you?

No I don't - there is way too much head space - It was suggested to me to compensate the extra head space by sanitizing plastic soda bottles and float them on top of the wine, but I feel that is utterly ridiculous. I will find a 5 gallon Glass Carboy and do it right. Thanks for your input!!!!

 

[vacuumpumpman]

you can always make an oak extract by use of chips and vodka or ever clear.

 

[JohnT]

I am not a kit winemaker (whole grapes), and I do not know the specific instructions your kit recommends, but my advice would be to try the following..

Do not oak until after you rack your wine post fermentation. This is just as soon as the wine clears and a distinct layer of lees can be seen. (the wine goes from chalky in color to the true color of the wine.

When you do oak, use the largest pieces of oak that you can find and comfortably use. For a 5 gal batch, I suggest 2.5oz of oak beans for 2-3 months. Check your wine each month, then rack off of the oak when the wine is to your liking.

Select a toast that fits what you are trying to achieve. A light toast yields a "Raw Wood" flavor, medium toast yields an oak wood with vanilla tones, and dark toast yields smoky, chocolate, coffee, vanilla tones.

Much of the desired oak flavors comes from a layer that only exists just below a char. If you look at your chips, there is no char and the chips are too thin to propagate this layer. I am not sure of essence and exactly what that might bring to the party, but it seems to me that this could not be as good as the real thing.

The above is just my two cents. Other's may have different opinions, and this is simply what I would do.

 

[JoeCal1952]

you can always make an oak extract by use of chips and vodka or ever clear.

I do have a 4 oz. bottle of oak extract that I am going to add before bottling if I am not happy with the oak that these chips bring...Thanks again for your help. I am not new to wine making but new to the fastferment and I am not sure I like it...The reason I got it is I have a bad back, and buckets and carboys are hard to move around and lift

 

[JoeCal1952]

I am not a kit winemaker (whole grapes), and I do not know the specific instructions your kit recommends, but my advice would be to try the following..

Do not oak until after you rack your wine post fermentation. This is just as soon as the wine clears and a distinct layer of lees can be seen. (the wine goes from chalky in color to the true color of the wine.

When you do oak, use the largest pieces of oak that you can find and comfortably use. For a 5 gal batch, I suggest 2.5oz of oak beans for 2-3 months. Check your wine each month, then rack off of the oak when the wine is to your liking.

Select a toast that fits what you are trying to achieve. A light toast yields a "Raw Wood" flavor, medium toast yields an oak wood with vanilla tones, and dark toast yields smoky, chocolate, coffee, vanilla tones.

Much of the desired oak flavors comes from a layer that only exists just below a char. If you look at your chips, there is no char and the chips are too thin to propagate this layer. I am not sure of essence and exactly what that might bring to the party, but it seems to me that this could not be as good as the real thing.

The above is just my two cents. Other's may have different opinions, and this is simply what I would do.

I value your opinion greatly! The oak that I have in there I figure won't hurt any, but I hear when using these oak chips in primary, it really isn't the same as aging with large oak as you stated. When it is time, I will get proper oak beans for this Cabernet. They suggest French Toasted oak and American Heavy Oak in the instructions. I guess these kits are really made for a quick ferment and a quick bottle to table, so you buy more frequently...LOL - When I was a kid I used to make wine with my grandfather in barrels in a hot garage. Not too much sanitizing back then. Just Zinfandel grapes, yeast, and a cheese cloth cover for the barrel. Never had issues either. Thanks for your input. When I get my carboy I will age as you say...

 

[richmke]

During active fermentation, the airlock is optional. During that time, you can use the airlock hole in the lid to secure your line holding the mesh bag.

Otherwise, wait until you transfer to a carboy to add the oak during aging.

 

[JoeCal1952]

During active fermentation, the airlock is optional. During that time, you can use the airlock hole in the lid to secure your line holding the mesh bag.

Otherwise, wait until you transfer to a carboy to add the oak during aging.

Thank you, another thing I never knew that the airlock is optional. Regarding that, There was activity in the airlock this morning and now it stopped, but you can see and hear the bubbling sound in the vessel??? Why would you think the airlock isn't bubbling? I know it is fermenting for sure. There is about 2 inches of foam on top of the must and it sounds like an alka seltzer....LOL

 

[sour_grapes]

I'd say you must have an air leak around your airlock.