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Venatorscribe

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I'm not sure the new kits contain less juice. As I understand it, the old production method required that water be added to the pasteurized juice. So you were getting some percentage of plain, old H2O. And from what I've been reading, the new production method does not require that water be added to the juice. Ergo .... same amount of juice, but with less water added.
That sounds interesting. i wouldn’t mind reading about the process. Do you have a link. cheers for the information.
 

jsbeckton

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I'm not sure the new kits contain less juice. As I understand it, the old production method required that water be added to the pasteurized juice. So you were getting some percentage of plain, old H2O. And from what I've been reading, the new production method does not require that water be added to the juice. Ergo .... same amount of juice, but with less water added.
Not sure what you have read but it was my understanding that the new kits have less juice and still are supposed to net 6 gallons?
 

joeswine

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No matter what, you'll get 24 bottles of wine out of it.
Now the question is what quality and what did you do to to it ?
 

bstnh1

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That sounds interesting. i wouldn’t mind reading about the process. Do you have a link. cheers for the information.
I have no idea where I read that. :slp But what I recall is that a more concentrated juice (more water removed) results in a higher brix. A concentrate of higher brix requires less pasteurization and supposedly results in a better wine. Here's a link to an explanation of the different volumes of juice and/or concentrate in wine kits. It's not directly related to the reduction in size of the winexpert kits, but it's good background info.
Understanding the Different Sizes of Wine Kits - WineMakerMag.com.
 

joeswine

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The proof is in the final results, no matter what the size of the kit it's the quality of the base that matters, as far as cost goes these new wine expert kits as very good ( the new ones) .
The spagnols limited edition are very good, regardless of volume.
On the cheaper kits it just fun and creativity that comes into play.
Regardless of the kit and price the 24 to 26 bottles is what you'll end up with what that tastes like is up to you 🙂.
 

bstnh1

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The proof is in the final results, no matter what the size of the kit it's the quality of the base that matters, as far as cost goes these new wine expert kits as very good ( the new ones) .
The spagnols limited edition are very good, regardless of volume.
On the cheaper kits it just fun and creativity that comes into play.
Regardless of the kit and price the 24 to 26 bottles is what you'll end up with what that tastes like is up to you 🙂.
I know you short the water, but why so much? I normally don't short water at all and if I top up I use a similar wine. I wind up with 28-30 bottles with ABV about 12% or a bit more.
 

sremick

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For years we've been told that the reason these "premium" kits were so much better was because they screwed around with the original juice less, not removing as much water. That's why they were bigger, that's why there was more juice in the box, that's why we had to add less water, that's why we were paying more.

Now suddenly we're supposed to believe everything they told us for years was nonsense and guess what, they can actually concentrate it just as much as the cheap kits, but somehow they are still "premium" kits that warrant a premium price. Basically, selling us the exact same product as the old cheap kits but charging us for the premium kits.

I'm not buying it. In both senses of the term.
 

winemaker81

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Now suddenly we're supposed to believe everything they told us for years was nonsense and guess what, they can actually concentrate it just as much as the cheap kits
Supposedly the new process makes the difference. I'm skeptical as well.

That said, I have Winexpert Australian Cabernet Sauvignon and Australian Chardonnay in process. At the fining step, the Cabernet is very rich and my prognosis is that I'll be happy with the result.
 

joeswine

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For years we've been told that the reason these "premium" kits were so much better was because they screwed around with the original juice less, not removing as much water. That's why they were bigger, that's why there was more juice in the box, that's why we had to add less water, that's why we were paying more.

Now suddenly we're supposed to believe everything they told us for years was nonsense and guess what, they can actually concentrate it just as much as the cheap kits, but somehow they are still "premium" kits that warrant a premium price. Basically, selling us the exact same product as the old cheap kits but charging us for the premium kits.

I'm not buying it. In both senses of the term.
 

BABRU

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There is water in any juice. If you get a 6 gal juice bucket you are juice straight from the fruit - not concentrated. In any 6 gal kit you are getting 6 gal of juice that has been concentrated. The new kit is just more concentrated.
 

joeswine

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It all depends on the winemakers process.
1.I've never have topped off .
2. Always Racked down
3.Used nitrogen as a cap
I learned how to create a good balance in my final product.the difference's in taste profiles of each wine what yeast work best and in conjunction with others.
When I worked with juice ( buckets) they were all the same in the end.
When I moved on to kits I became a Chef and started creating my own wine.
There is a balance between flavor, body aroma and acholo that ,for me is easier and more rewarding ,not to say creative
So yes less is more, there doing something I've been doing for years and winning competitions with. Cost to me isn't everything., I've done the same with $49 fallout kits .it's all about the Base and the Process.
 

joeswine

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And that's what we call fermentation or boil off were concentrating the juice down.
As well as producing acholo
 

gerryd

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I'm not sure the new kits contain less juice. As I understand it, the old production method required that water be added to the pasteurized juice. So you were getting some percentage of plain, old H2O. And from what I've been reading, the new production method does not require that water be added to the juice. Ergo .... same amount of juice, but with less water added.
The proof is in the pudding.
So today I bottled a 'new' batch of WE pinot noir, (29 bottles) which I have had before with good success.
This new batch is diluted - a very light wine -this new kit is probably ok if you only make 23-25 bottles
from WE perspective:
less juice and same price = more profit
 

Swedeman

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Less juice and same price = more profit
There isn't less juice in their kits now, they do contain a smaller volume of more concentrated juice than before. But after you add back the volume of water they have removed during the concentration process, you will again end up with a single strength juice, the starting point, with a Brix of roughly 20-25.

Also, as they start with 23 liter of grape juice, their cost is the same regardless of how much they concentrate the juice. It's the quality of the grape juice that puts the price tag on the kit. Obviously, they save money on shipping, less energy needed for pasteurization etc.

You guys are implying that they have replaced part of the grape juice with water and sugar when you say "less juice". If it is like you say, that the kit now is good for 4-6 bottles less, that's up 4,5 liter less grape juice. Instead of starting with 23 liter juice, they start with ~19 liter juice, ~4 liter water and the needed amount of sugar so you get the intended Brix.
 

Old Corker

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It's the quality of the grape juice that puts the price tag on the kit.
This has been my assumption as well. Plus these high end kits all come with skins (except for the NZ Pinot Noir) which changes the formula of the must and the approach to making it. For me anyway.
Then again, I could just be a sucker for slick advertising.:slp
 

jumby

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Is the grape pack the same size as previous kits, or did they cheap out on that too?
 

bstnh1

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From "justfinewines": The smaller format wine kit has a higher brix (sugar content) which results in a more stable product. A more stable product allows for less pasteurization time which results in improved colour, aromatics and taste – all of which adds up to better wine!
 

sremick

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There is water in any juice. If you get a 6 gal juice bucket you are juice straight from the fruit - not concentrated. In any 6 gal kit you are getting 6 gal of juice that has been concentrated. The new kit is just more concentrated.
Fresh grapes contain about 90% water.
From "justfinewines": The smaller format wine kit has a higher brix (sugar content) which results in a more stable product. A more stable product allows for less pasteurization time which results in improved colour, aromatics and taste – all of which adds up to better wine!
All this avoids the point I made earlier that these same companies have been selling different tiers for years:

"Economy" tier that is very concentrated (you need to add more water)
"Premium" tier that is not as concentrated, and costs more.

We all know they produce the same amount of end product, that's not the point. The story we've been fed is that "premium" was worth it because it produced better wine, hence the higher cost. Now they're doing to the "premium" the same processing they did to the "economy", but still trying to charge the premium price meanwhile feeding us some BS marketing spin to try and rewrite history and justify it.
 

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