New member with 6 gallons of fresh Cardonel juice, need advice.

[strut]

Thanks everyone that puts my mind at ease.

I got all three of the varieties from a local vineyard in Southern Indiana. The only cost was a bottle of each when they're done! My mother got some of each to make jam. She said the Chambourcin made the best jam she has ever had.

 

[strut]

I racked both of my wines off the lees tonight. They are doing great as far as I can tell. Both taste good, dry, with plenty of acid and no off flavors. I was going to stabilize, but my wine lady (who owns the supply shop) said she never does, and simply leaves them alone to age until bottling.

What should my acid levels look like at this point? I did get a test kit, but I assume the levels I'm shooting for when finished would be different then the numbers prefermintation.

 

[sour_grapes]

I was going to stabilize, but my wine lady (who owns the supply shop) said she never does, and simply leaves them alone to age until bottling.

Define "stabilize"? Do you mean to say that you are planning to forgo adding K-meta, and bottle without? Why? What do you think will benefit from this?

 

[strut]

Define "stabilize"? Do you mean to say that you are planning to forgo adding K-meta, and bottle without? Why? What do you think will benefit from this?

No, sorry, maybe that was the wrong term. I meant protecting the wine from oxidation and infection while it bulk ages in the carboy. I don't plan on bottling for at least another 10 months.

 

[sour_grapes]

Good, I think. So you will add k-meta but will skip the potassium sorbate? I think that is what you mean...

 

[strut]

Good, I think. So you will add k-meta but will skip the potassium sorbate? I think that is what you mean...

I was told to leave it alone for now. I used Camden tablets preferment as per the recipe. Do you think it needs another dose of Potassium Metabisulfite now or in the future? No plans for sorbate . I appreciate your patience with my noobness

 

[sour_grapes]

I am hoping that someone with more experience than I have will weigh in. I don't know how much of your pre-fermentation SO2 would survive the fermentation process. Personally, I would be concerned that you will not have enough SO2 to protect your wine from oxidation and spoilage for 10 months aging.

Again, why do you think there is a benefit to forgoing the k-meta?

Of course, the best approach would be to test it (and the pH), but I am guessing you don't have the means to do so.

 

[strut]

I am hoping that someone with more experience than I have will weigh in. I don't know how much of your pre-fermentation SO2 would survive the fermentation process. Personally, I would be concerned that you will not have enough SO2 to protect your wine from oxidation and spoilage for 10 months aging.

Again, why do you think there is a benefit to forgoing the k-meta?

Of course, the best approach would be to test it (and the pH), but I am guessing you don't have the means to do so.

I'm not saying their is benefit of forgoing k-meta, just that none of my recipes say it is needed.

I don't have a way to measure SO2. I do however have a digital pH meter, but I'm doubtful of its accuracy at this time. I tried to calibrate it, but the only buffer solution I have currently is 0.2N Sodium Hydroxide which is pH14! This is the max my meter reads and was only registering 12 in this buffer. I calibrated using this, but I'm concerned it isn't accurate. I've ordered some pH 4.1 & 7 buffer solutions. I'll get back to you when they arrive.

 

[seth8530]

I would start looking at winemaking as more of a process and less of a cookbook kind of deal. I would add sulfite once fermentation is complete based on your soon to be calibrated PH probe. I am pretty sure that it is pretty safe to assume that all the free SO2 gets bound during fermentation.

 

[ibglowin]

Sodium Hydroxide is NOT a buffer and you can not calibrate your pH meter using this. Your meter is smart enough to know what buffer solution you stuck it into (once you get some buffer solution.) You can pick some up at your local home brew store or several online sources including More Wine, Amazon etc. For winemaking you need to have both 4.01 and 7.0 buffer solutions. Some should have come with your pH meter as well.

I do however have a digital pH meter, but I'm doubtful of its accuracy at this time. I tried to calibrate it, but the only buffer solution I have currently is 0.2N Sodium Hydroxide which is pH14! This is the max my meter reads and was only registering 12 in this buffer. I calibrated using this, but I'm concerned it isn't accurate. I've ordered some pH 4.1 & 7 buffer solutions. I'll get back to you when they arrive.

 

[strut]

My pH buffers came in the mail today. I tested both pH and TA:

Chardonel pH 3.7, TA ~0.7%
Chambourcin pH 3.5, TA ~0.6%

What would you recommend for a k-meta dose per gallon?

 

[seth8530]

I don't have one handy, but there are charts that tell you how much to add based on ph.

 

[strut]

I don't have one handy, but there are charts that tell you how much to add based on ph.

Thanks Seth, I did finally dig up this:
http://www.homebeerwinecheese.com/SO2.html

After some reading, it looks like its best to lower the pH of the Chardonel to closer to 3.2. Would you suggest doing so with my TA at about 7% already?

 

[seth8530]

I would only lower TA until you hit the flavour you want, then adjust so2 based on the ph that gave you.

 

[strut]

My concern was adding tartaric acid to lower the pH without adding too much acid bite as the 7% TA seems to be where I'd want it.

I've done a bunch of reading and now understand it is more important to get this wine's pH down than to worry about TA. It looks like my plan will be to dose with tartaric acid to get to pH 3.5. Then I will cold-stabilize for a few weeks, which should lower the pH another tenth or two and lower the TA a bit. This should get me close to pH 3.3 which will give me some room to use calcium carbonate to get TA back down to where I'd like it if needed later(where it is now ~7%)

I'll dose with k-meta once the pH is down a bit.

Anyone see any problems with this plan?

 

[grapeman]

While the pH is higher than I would like it, what does it taste like now? Do you plan on sweetening it? If you want to sweeten, a lower pH may be needed to balance a sugar addition. If it tastes good now and you don't want to sweeten, cold stabilize it to lower the pH a bit and I might just leave it alone. Being too fussy with acid, pH, TA, etc can sometimes lead to problems you don't want or need.

 

[strut]

I think it is pretty tasty as-is. I don't plan on sweetening unless it needs it in the end. I prefer dry wines.

My only concern at this point is SO2 and keeping the wines protected.

 

[seth8530]

I disagree, I think you should do TA to taste, and use the PH that give you to know which so2 dose you should apply... No big deal to add some extra sulfites.

 

[ibglowin]

I see a little problem. Why in the world would you add Acid which will lower pH and raise TA only to add Carbonate down the road which would lower TA back down as well as raising the pH.

Carbonate effects both pH and TA…..

Cold stabilization will not lower pH, it will drop acid which will……. RAISE the pH.

My concern was adding tartaric acid to lower the pH without adding too much acid bite as the 7% TA seems to be where I'd want it.

I've done a bunch of reading and now understand it is more important to get this wine's pH down than to worry about TA. It looks like my plan will be to dose with tartaric acid to get to pH 3.5. Then I will cold-stabilize for a few weeks, which should lower the pH another tenth or two and lower the TA a bit. This should get me close to pH 3.3 which will give me some room to use calcium carbonate to get TA back down to where I'd like it if needed later(where it is now ~7%)

I'll dose with k-meta once the pH is down a bit.

Anyone see any problems with this plan?

 

[strut]

The current pH of 3.7 is actually to high for cold-stabilization.

"Cold Stabilization. Wines with a pH greater than 3.65 should not be cold stabilized. When wines are cold-stabilized, the goal is to precipitate potassium bitartrate crystals so that they don’t fall out of solution in the bottle. Above pH 3.65, this salt acts like an acid. So, by removing an acid from the solution, it causes your pH to increase. However, if the wine’s pH is LESS THAN 3.65, cold stabilization will help to LOWER your pH. Below this point, potassium bitartrate acts as a base, so removing from solution causes the solution to become more acidic. Pretty cool, huh?"

http://enology.umn.edu/2012/10/17/high-total-acidity-and-high-ph-how-to-handle-it/

So the premise is to use tartaric acid just to get the pH down below 3.65 and then cold crash to lower it even more. This is the most pH "bang" for my TA "buck".