Marquette versus Frontenac

Discussion in 'Grape Growing & Vineyard Forum' started by StevenD55, Dec 6, 2015.

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  1. Jun 24, 2017 #21

    StevenD55

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    Can't believe it's been that long since I posted this.

    Anyway, to update, Frontenac and Marquette vines are both doing pretty well. I had a few pounds of Marquette's that I let sit on the vine until everything else ripened. The sugar content got to be close to 30° Brix. Yeah, it was pancake syrup.

    We had an interesting spring though. It warmed up enough that almost everything thought it was time to bud out. But then we got two hard freezes. Very few fruit trees are producing anything. Frontenac's, Valiant's and Marquette's had all popped to the point of a few small leaves and flower buds when the freezes hit. Of all my vines, the Marquette's suffered the worst. Valiant's worked through it without much damage at all and Frontenac's experienced some damage, but still worked through it. The poor Marquette's looked pretty sad, except for one vine that seemed to take it in stride, which was strange. The attached photo is from the morning of the hard freeze. I tried spraying some water on the buds, but that didn't work very well.

    Anyway, all are producing grapes now fairly well, but the ripening will be very uneven this year. I suspect birds will be relentless since that will be about all there is in the way of fruit to pick on. I rec'd an email from the Colorado State Biologist stating that bears could be a problem as well since pretty much all of their forage froze out in the high country. Oh boy!!!

    Could continue to be a challenging year.

    Frozen Buds.jpg
     
  2. Jul 19, 2017 #22

    jimmyl

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    Steve im going to put in a small backyard vinyard just south of montrose, about 75 vines. marquette, bluebell, itaska, swenson red, traminette, and america to see if it will make here. i read that pierces has been detected in delta and phyloxeria at one vinyard around the junction so im sctratching my head on cold hardy varietys that may or may not have any resistance. i have raised champanel and america in southern oklahoma, champanel is totally immune to pierces but is listed as zone six
     
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  3. Aug 14, 2017 #23

    NorthSlopeVineyard

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    I'm looking for some advice here:
    Based on the Marquette parentage, I've treated it like Pinot Noir and expected results like pinot as well. My first real vintage was 2016. Numbers were good, 3.4 pH, 27 brix, give or take. I fermented until dry on RC212, about 8 days, then pressed by hand. Fermentation temps peaked around 79, ambient fermentation temp held steady at about 68. I racked gross lees and initiated mlf, aged on french oak chips, etc.

    The first lot was bottled in May 2017, the rest remains aging.

    The wine is very drinkable, especially for a young wine, but not Pinot like at all. It does not taste very acidic, the fruit is somewhat muted, and the fruit I do get is very dark fruit, plum, even prune, with some spice. The nose has a slight rubbery smell, but it isn't bad. The wine has a fairly heavy body, especially for a hybrid. I like it and think it's a good wine, but it is nothing like what I expected. I thought it would be much lighter, fruiter, and more acidic.

    I'm looking for any recommendations on my method, especially yeast selection.
    Does anyone have a Marquette they are really proud of that would be willing to share their methods? I'm growing in south central MT, zone 5a. Picking fruit at about 2550 GDD, with a season total of around 2700 GDD. I'm a little over a month out on picking, so any help would be great.
     
  4. Aug 14, 2017 #24

    GreginND

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    It is darker and richer than pinot noir. It doesn't have a lot of natural tennis, so it benefits greatly from oak. I have a friend who makes his in a pinot noir style and leaves it in the barrel for a couple of years. It is remarkable. It can have a bit higher acid sometimes. I have only used 71b with it because mine typically have higher acid that I want to remove. I love the dark mocha complexity of this grape. I'm asking $27 a bottle for it here. It's selling out fast.
     
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  5. Aug 21, 2017 #25

    NorthSlopeVineyard

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    Do you pick based on sugar, acid, or something else? I have the luxury of letting the brix go very high (i can pick at 28 with several weeks before frost). I'm thinking of picking a little earlier, maybe at 25 brix to help preserve more fruitiness in the wine. Any suggestions?
     
  6. Aug 22, 2017 #26

    GreginND

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    I would pick it around 25 if I had my druthers. It doesn't usually get much higher than that around here. But the most important thing is to follow the acid levels and pick based on your optimal level. My best Marquette was made with grapes that were crushed and then frozen until I could make the wine. The thawing process was like a few days cold soaking and helped the wine tremendously.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  7. Aug 22, 2017 #27

    StevenD55

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    Jimmy....Apologies for not getting back to you sooner.

    I had heard that phylloxera had hit GJ. I don't know where else, if at all on the west slope it's been encountered. I did not know that Pierce's disease had hit in Delta. I guess Marquette is a bit susceptible. We might have to start. One other thought on phylloxera resistance might be to order grafted vines that utilize phylloxera resistant roots.

    If not mistaken, your bluebell may be a lot like my Valiant. But I think all of those varieties should grow ok in Montrose. I grew up a few miles south of there and so I know the climate pretty well and know that Montrose is in a bit of a snow shadow.

    One issue I've had with the Zone 3 grapes though is that those varieties tend to bud out early and then are more susceptible to frost. My Marquette's suffered the most of all of mine this year. Just a thought though. You might want to consider Noiret for red, Aurore, or similar for white. Both produce real nice large clusters and are easier to pick than my Valiant and I suspect Bluebell. My Noiret vines are in their second year, but my neighbor has put in a lot of those and doing quite well. The berries are larger and clusters are really nice to handle with usually only 2 seeds per grape.

    Incidentally, some Zone 6 grapes grow here near Glenwood Springs. Baco Noir is listed as Zone 6, but acts more like Zone 4 in my opinion. I'm not saying I'd recommend that vine necessarily. It's high in acid like Frontenac though, if you like that. I have been growing Jupiter grapes too. Those are a bit spotty though, but really nice on good years with a grapefruit type flavor. My neighbor had Pinot Grigio, but took those out because ripening was not very consistent.

    Anyway, hope this helps a little.

    Good Luck!
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  8. Aug 22, 2017 #28

    UBB

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    What kind of container where the froze in? 5 gal pails?
     
  9. Aug 23, 2017 #29

    GreginND

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    No, I had them in 15 gallon sealed plastic barrels.
     
  10. Aug 23, 2017 #30

    GreginND

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    Yes, this is a particular problem for Marquette. I would suggest Crimson Pearl, one of the newer varieties from Tom Plocher. They are much better growers for us here on the edge of zone 3/4. They are hardier than Marquette, don't bud out quite as early and produce outstanding wines.
     
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  11. Aug 27, 2017 #31

    StevenD55

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    What Brix do you expect out of Crimson Pearl?
     
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  12. Oct 1, 2017 #32

    NorthSlopeVineyard

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    Greg, thanks for the help.
    I have separate batches of Marquette that are post-fermentation. We picked early to help keep lighter fruit flavors. They were around 24.5 Brix at harvest.

    One batch was fermented on rc212 the other was on 77b. Both have MLF going right now. The rc212 batch did not clear hardly at all yet, but the 77b batch is very clear.

    My question is about the rc212 batch is in how it is responding to MLF. It is very very gassy, almost like a somewhat vigorous fermentation. Way more bubbles than any previous MLF. The bubbles have pushed through the airlock once, and the airlock was pushing a bubble every ten seconds or so and still is . Any ideas about this?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2017
  13. Oct 1, 2017 #33

    stickman

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    Maybe it has something to do with the 77B consuming a portion of the malic acid; therefore, this batch would have less malic for the ML.
     
  14. Jun 11, 2019 #34

    FrontenacMan

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    This is an interesting discussion. I have 4 Frontenac and 4 Frontenac Gris. They are now 5 years old. At the time I started, Marquette were not readily avalialble. I've made both a red from the Frontenac and a white from the Frontenac Gris. I've tried blending with different concentrates. The results are good but I would like to try Marquette and Breanna. The question is how to migrate? Is grafting an option? The Frontenacs now have a strong root system. Starting over with new vines (and pulling the Frontenac) means waiting three years and hoping they survive the winter (I'm in Wisconsin). Any thoughts on this?
     
  15. Jun 11, 2019 #35

    Masbustelo

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    I have been playing around with grafting apples this spring. I don't have any experience with grapes, but think at least in theory you should be able to do it. There are tricks with each specie, so for sure you would want to study up ahead of time.
     
  16. Jun 11, 2019 #36

    Rice_Guy

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    My answer was to put the new variety (Briana a few years back, now Itasca) in next to the old, still harvest old on year one, and then give old vines a hair cut at ground level.
    Have not talked to anyone at the Milwaukee or Madison vintners clubs who grafts grapes. Several in Milwaukee are collecting/ grafting apple varieties. The key tweet on their grafting process is that it helps to wrap with Teflon tape and then overwrap as normal. The rest of process, second year wood , V cut, etc seemed normal. That said I would pick a convent two year old wood and try it.
    Brianna will be foxy if you let the Brix run up, have you looked into Itasca? Word in the club is brix/ acid at harvest was good. Have only tasted Itasca once at state fair. Was interesting enough to cycle three vines into the vineyard.
     
  17. Jun 11, 2019 #37

    FrontenacMan

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    Thanks for the info. I have not looked into Itasca. I will do so. Also interesting concept of growing new vines next to old and then cutting old vines after new ones mature. Will the new vines roots contend with the old? I don't know a lot about grape rooting systems but if they are anything like trees the roots sometimes extend out as far as the branch circumference. So will the roots extend out as far as the cordons?
     
  18. Jun 11, 2019 #38

    montanarick

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    haven't done it personally but from what I've read there shouldn't be any problem grafting. Marquette makes some pretty good wine!
     
  19. Jun 11, 2019 #39

    GreginND

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    Given the horrendous problems with Marquette die back all across this northerner region of the country this year, I am fed up with Marquette. My Marquette is 7 years old and it has died to the ground every year. Not a single grape yet. So, I would not recommend grafting it as there is a high likelihood it would die back beyond the graft.

    If you are looking for a nice red grape that has more cold tolerance and not as early bud break (frost risk) I would suggest Crimson Pearl.
     
  20. Jun 11, 2019 #40

    Masbustelo

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    Without topping the vines like in this video, starting July15- September 1st, you could try chip and t-bud grafting. If they take, your ahead of the game next year, if not do the two varieties together route next year.
     
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