Other Kit Wine Expectations

[simonz]

I'm new to winemaking and I just put my first kit into the fermenter. This one is the WE Eclipse Lodi Cabernet. The next for the pipeline that is on order, is the Cellar Craft Showcase Red Mountain Cabernet.

I'm not a wine snob by any means, but I enjoy a decent wine. My daily go to wine is low end Yellow Tail Merlot. This is about the lowest level wine that I enjoy. Other times I like a mid-level cabernet like a 14-Hands Cabernet, which I think is excellent in the $10-14 price range. Occasionally, I'll buy a $20 Cabernet or Merlot.

Once I toured the Opus-1 Winery in California and purchased their taster sample (then it was $25 for a 3 oz. sample). That was the best (and most expensive) wine that I have ever tasted. Since then I've been looking for a similar taste in less expensive wines, but have not found any that are close.

I'm not sure what to expect of my premium kit wines that I have in the pipeline. (I plan on bulk aging for at least a year). I'd be disappointed if they didn't rise above the Yellow Tail Merlot level and hope that they would rise to the mid-level or about the $25 range. I'd be ecstatic if they ever approached the high level wine rankings of say a 92-96 in Wine Spectator scoring.

Could some one with experience with similar kit wines help me where I should set my expectation levels?

 

[ibglowin]

Here is my $0.02. Starting with only the high end line of kits that come with a grape pack, if you age in just glass alone you can make a $~10-$15 bottle equivalent wine. If you pony up and purchase a 23L Vadai Barrel you can bring it up to ~$15-20. I don't think you will ever come remotely close to 90pts WS with a Kit Wine. The Limited Release kits are usually from higher quality fruit so those are something you should always look into each year. Also the Cellar Craft Showcase Cab/Merlot has made the absolute best wine hands down for me. It is even better than the Red Mountain Cab (IMHO) and its cheaper. You will also need to have patience. These wines take 18-24 months before they really shine.

 

[bkisel]

Very subjective but I would put my RJS VdV series wines in the ~ $10-$12 range and the RJS WS approaching the $20.00 range and higher ifin you wait maybe a year to 18 months before consuming.

 

[simonz]

Very subjective but I would put my RJS VdV series wines in the ~ $10-$12 range and the RJS WS approaching the $20.00 range and higher ifin you wait maybe a year to 18 months before consuming.

What is the RJS WS wine? I couldn't find it online.

[Edit] Ok, I think you are refering to Wine Spectator ratings.

 

[bkisel]

What is the RJS WS wine? I couldn't find it online.

[Edit] Ok, I think you are refering to Wine Spectator ratings.

Sorry, I'm referring to RJ Spagnols Cellar Classic Winery Series which is very often refereed to simply as RJS WS - as for example... "I just bought an RJS WS Super Tuscan from my LHBS".

I pay $75.00 for RJS VdV (Vino del Vida) and $125.00 for RJS WS kits at my LHBS.

 

[ColemanM]

I have found that even after 18 months, my WE Lodi Cab is still not as mouth filling as a fresh grape cab at the liquor store. It spent only 9 weeks in a barrel, which is not enough, is over oaked and still IMHO relatively thin. However, my Cellar Craft Amarone is 12+ months old, took @14 weeks in a barrel, skins stayed in the must 9 days, and is a much fuller, near fresh grape mouthfeel wine. Still doesn't come close to a 92 point wine, but getting there. Maybe 85 but I am much much more critical of my wine than my friends who have a naturally removed opinion on the wine. I am also trying to make that 95 pt wine, but not sure a kit will do it. I did actually just pull out a bottle of a WE Luna rosa that I really hated at first, at one year I didn't care for it cuz it had a bitter taste, but now at 20 months is actually not bad. Bordering good but like I say, I am very critical. So be ready to wait and wait. Time does amazing things to a wine! Good luck!

 

[jsiddall]

I would agree with everything said above, with a strong emphasis on the aging part. While this is very subjective, like ColemanM I am pretty critical. My oldest kit is the CC Showcase Cabernet Red Mountain at 15 months and I would not say it is even comparable to a good $10 commercial bottle yet. It's not thin or flavorless but it still has funky aromas and flavors (probably better known as kit taste) that come across to me as flaws.

You might also find that googleing "kit wine commercial compare" might turn up a result

If I were to summarize that thread I would say you will have a hard time coming up with 90+ point/$20+ equivalent wine with a kit made by the instructions.

 

[ibglowin]

It's not thin or flavorless but it still has funky aromas and flavors (probably better known as kit taste) that come across to me as flaws.

That is where the barrel really helps out and the longer in the barrel the better.

 

[heatherd]

I'm new to winemaking and I just put my first kit into the fermenter. This one is the WE Eclipse Lodi Cabernet. The next for the pipeline that is on order, is the Cellar Craft Showcase Red Mountain Cabernet.

I'm not a wine snob by any means, but I enjoy a decent wine. My daily go to wine is low end Yellow Tail Merlot. This is about the lowest level wine that I enjoy. Other times I like a mid-level cabernet like a 14-Hands Cabernet, which I think is excellent in the $10-14 price range. Occasionally, I'll buy a $20 Cabernet or Merlot.

Once I toured the Opus-1 Winery in California and purchased their taster sample (then it was $25 for a 3 oz. sample). That was the best (and most expensive) wine that I have ever tasted. Since then I've been looking for a similar taste in less expensive wines, but have not found any that are close.

I'm not sure what to expect of my premium kit wines that I have in the pipeline. (I plan on bulk aging for at least a year). I'd be disappointed if they didn't rise above the Yellow Tail Merlot level and hope that they would rise to the mid-level or about the $25 range. I'd be ecstatic if they ever approached the high level wine rankings of say a 92-96 in Wine Spectator scoring.

Could some one with experience with similar kit wines help me where I should set my expectation levels?

Premium kits, with adequate aging, will compete with a commercial wine in the $15-25 range. I still buy commercial wine, and often find that bottles in the $15-25 range are not nearly as good as mine.
Heather

 

[Brian55]

In our blind tastings among friends, our better kit wines dominate in the under $8 range. They trend towards the top and often win in $10-$12. They typically drift around mid pack in the $13-$15 category. Above that they start dropping down in the ratings quite rapidly. Keep in mind that we don't have too many bottles much older than 2 years at this point, some of our earlier tastings were prior to us using the extended schedule, and we don't have a barrel.

 

[fabrictodyefor]

Flavor is so subjective! My first kit, a WE Select Pinot Noir is pretty good, and only about 4 months old. I have other "fast" wines and plan to leave the PN alone for a year. I've had better PN, but I have also paid more money for a mid-range PN and been disappointed.

 

[simonz]

Balanced High End with Early Drinker

I am the OP to this thread. I read threads on another forum that recommended that beginners start with an early drinker wine and not to begin with wines that take 2 years before they are drinkable. Or at least throw an early drinker in the mix while waiting.

I took their advice and cancelled the Showcase Red Mountain Cabernet and replaced with an early drinker, the Vintner's Reserve Mezza Luna Red in order to imbibe while the Eclipse Lodi Cab matures over the next two years.

It makes perfect sense to be able to enjoy some home made vino while waiting (seemingly forever) for the better stuff to mature.

 

[tonyt]

Good move Simon

 

[jsiddall]

I took their advice and cancelled the Showcase Red Mountain Cabernet and replaced with an early drinker, the Vintner's Reserve Mezza Luna Red in order to imbibe while the Eclipse Lodi Cab matures over the next two years.

It makes perfect sense to be able to enjoy some home made vino while waiting (seemingly forever) for the better stuff to mature.

LOL, I also tried that but now I have 30 bottles of MLR that I am really not inclined to drink. I have been using it as a top-up wine for some other kits though so eventually I may use it all up.

So now I am back to just drinking commercial while I wait. That and making some Dragon Blood, which really is a decent thing to drink early -- in a light and fruity kind of way.

 

[Putterrr]

just because you drink it before 2 years doesn't mean it will be horrible tasting. it just wont be as good as it can be. its still an ultra premium kit with a texture and body that a cheap 4 week kit can't hope to match. if you have the $$ and space, over the next couple years just make way more kits than you can possibly drink. eventuallly you'll end up with a great selection of aged wines. At that point you can cut back on kits and enjoy. Tell your wife/husband it will be worth every penny.

cheers

 

[2020steve]

just because you drink it before 2 years doesn't mean it will be horrible tasting. it just wont be as good as it can be. its still an ultra premium kit with a texture and body that a cheap 4 week kit can't hope to match. if you have the $$ and space, over the next couple years just make way more kits than you can possibly drink. eventuallly you'll end up with a great selection of aged wines. At that point you can cut back on kits and enjoy. Tell your wife/husband it will be worth every penny.

cheers

I could not have said it better!

 

[ColemanM]

Wow, this is turning into an entertaining thread in the fact that mezza Luna red came up. So simonz wants it for an early drinker, jsiddall has 30 bottles that won't be drunk. Ha! I was in both your shoes 22 months ago. I bought MLR because EVERYONE on the merchant's site praised it and said how it changed their lives and would bring world peace. Oh man! Three months later I was wondering what kind of bitter swill these people drank before! My MLR had such an odd taste with a very acidic twang to it. I forced myself to drink it while my other wines aged. Fast forward 22 months and I grabbed an unlabeled bottle from my rack and assumed it was a Carmenere. Wow I was surprised at the evolution this wine had completed! The acidity was gone. The off flavors were gone. What was left was a pretty decent Italian wine. Still not close to a premium kit, but so much better than before!! I'd give it an 87. So, long store short-ish it may be touted as an "early drinker", but you would be remiss by not aging it as you would a premium kit. Jsiddall, toss some in a corner for a few years, you may be impressed.

 

[jsiddall]

My MLR had such an odd taste with a very acidic twang to it. I forced myself to drink it while my other wines aged.

...

The acidity was gone. The off flavors were gone. What was left was a pretty decent Italian wine. Still not close to a premium kit, but so much better than before!! I'd give it an 87. So, long store short-ish it may be touted as an "early drinker", but you would be remiss by not aging it as you would a premium kit. Jsiddall, toss some in a corner for a few years, you may be impressed.

Mine is 6 months old now and I get a lot of tar and barnyard with really no fruit at all.

Anyway, I am pretty much guaranteed to have some left after 22 months so I will try it again later. Thanks for the tip!

 

[richmke]

I am no where near being a wine connoisseur. I just know if I like the taste, and it goes down smoothly. I wouldn't be able to tell you if I tasted hints of 3 fruits or 30, let alone all the other essences of tobacco, dirt, or what have you.

I've had the pleasure (sort of) of having a glass of a lot of expensive wines. For the most part, they were hard for me to drink. Very sharp, or bitter, is the best I can describe it. Some had lots of body, which is preferable to koolaid.

On the whole, the premium kit wines seem to hit my balance of nice flavor, and not sharp/bitter.

I would prefer a lower rated wine I can enjoy drinking, than an expensive wine that may have a lot of complexity I do not know how to appreciate, but have a hard time getting through one glass.

 

[scram]

I have a couple kits going now. WE Vintners Reserve Cab & Australian Petit Verdot w/skins... Both bulk aging. I'm new to wine making. I've done tons of reading... Must say I'm rather disheartened to hear my wine will most likely be an $8 bottle and at best, not much better... How does a home winemaker produce a good if not excellent, complex wine....???