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Thank you for that extensive test. Since I age all my wines for 12 months before bottling, I don’t plan on using K&C unless, as you stated, a wine really needs it.
Kieselsol and Chitosan Test results
- Thread starter winemaker81
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So we are 1/4th or a quarter into my experiment with the FWK Syrah. Thanks Bryan for the results ..... I viewed them in July on your site.
Update 11-06-2023:
Today I racked the FWK Syrah into a clean carboy and added K-meta. I did not use the clearing agents in June-July per instructions. There was not as much sediment as I expected today and my plan is to not rack again until its time to split the 6 gallons in a few months. Pulled off one glass and this Syrah for 5 months is very nice although its not a clear wine. I have five other wines in carboys which I used the clearing agents and all five are much noticeably clearer than the FWK Syrah w/o clearing agents.
Most of the time I notice clearing begins within an hour or two of the addition, and I don't see any more sediment build-up after a couple of days.
One difference was a FWK Chardonnay (pre-carbon), which took several days to start clearing, and (IIRC) it took more than a week to fully clear.
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I have had it clear white wines in 8 hours it’s fast, I usually let it sit 48 in reds then bottle them immediately after. I only use K&C or I fine with egg whites I don’t use filters they strip too much out of wines and every single filtered wine I have ever tried has been flat and lifeless it damages wines a lot and reduces color in a lot of cases.
I let a wine sit and if time doesn’t get all the sediment then I use one of the 2 listed methods. Even at the winery we do that for our commercial Wines.
Started a FWK Tavola Syrah June 2023.
I split my FWK Tavola Syrah into a couple of 3 gallon glass carboys and used clearing agents on one carboy. The wines was bottled late June 2024 and kept separate for a non scientific experiment. I marked the bottles so you can tell the difference in the wine. BTW ...clearing agents were the only difference.
Results? We had 7 people taste both Syrah's and all 7 preferred the wine with clearing agents. It was hard for me to believe and I almost didn't post these non scientific results. Yeah, family/friends chose the wine with Kieselsol / Chitosan. I figured it would be the opposite. Actually everyone loved both glasses of wine and I personally thought it's the best Syrah I've ever had. We all agreed with or without clearing agents it was an awesome wine.
06-2023. started FWK Tavola Syrah
07-2023. racked into clean glass 6 gallon
11-2023. racked into clean glass 6 gallon added Kmeta
03-2024 separated into 2 - 3 gallon glass carboys added Kmeta to both and clearing agents to one carboy
04-2024. clearing agent carboy racked into clean glass
06-2024 (end of June). bottled both 3 gallon carboys
I split my FWK Tavola Syrah into a couple of 3 gallon glass carboys and used clearing agents on one carboy. The wines was bottled late June 2024 and kept separate for a non scientific experiment. I marked the bottles so you can tell the difference in the wine. BTW ...clearing agents were the only difference.
Results? We had 7 people taste both Syrah's and all 7 preferred the wine with clearing agents. It was hard for me to believe and I almost didn't post these non scientific results. Yeah, family/friends chose the wine with Kieselsol / Chitosan. I figured it would be the opposite. Actually everyone loved both glasses of wine and I personally thought it's the best Syrah I've ever had. We all agreed with or without clearing agents it was an awesome wine.
06-2023. started FWK Tavola Syrah
07-2023. racked into clean glass 6 gallon
11-2023. racked into clean glass 6 gallon added Kmeta
03-2024 separated into 2 - 3 gallon glass carboys added Kmeta to both and clearing agents to one carboy
04-2024. clearing agent carboy racked into clean glass
06-2024 (end of June). bottled both 3 gallon carboys
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From Sherlock Holmes: "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"
My son preferred the fined version of one of the wines in our original test. Just because the K&C removed aroma and introduced a slight bitterness doesn't mean some people won't prefer it. Your results make sense.
OTOH, did you check if one had more aroma and if one was more bitter than the other? If you didn't, try the test again, and do it blind. I'm interested in your results.
It is funny how we could just make wine and enjoy drinking it, but nope, we have to turn it all into one experiment after another.
What happens when I do this...
Inquiring minds must know. 
It is a fun hobby!
What happens when I do this...
Inquiring minds must know. It is a fun hobby!
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I actually got to the point of only using K&C in white wines because of all the literature I read about K&C stripping flavor and aroma from reds. Your test surprised me.
Surprised me too.
When running a taste panel one Standard method is to do a triangle test. Three samples with codes on them, two are the same and one is different. The question then asked is can a customer tell which is the odd sample, or are they essentially the same.
Group tasting is not as effective as individual blind tasting. Folks tend to influence what their neighbors will like and dislike. Group tasting is good for training on flavors and developing descriptive language.
We eat with our eyes first. Was there a difference in clarity?
Group tasting is not as effective as individual blind tasting. Folks tend to influence what their neighbors will like and dislike. Group tasting is good for training on flavors and developing descriptive language.
We eat with our eyes first. Was there a difference in clarity?
Yes in clarity difference ... I didn't reveal my test until we were finished with both glasses. Out of 12 people 7 wanted to participate and these are friends who have no expertise in winemaking. I let them finish each glass and a vote on their favorite all within about 20-30 minutes. After collecting their favorite, I told them what I had done with clearing agents / no clearing agents. Again, not scientific at all. Gave them both glasses at once and everyone went back / forth between the glasses until they were finished. We all agreed it was the "same wine" but I made them pick (write down on paper) and that was my result. Most felt the clearing agent wine was smoother by a scootch. Several guests felt both glasses was the best Syrah they had ever had which for me was a proud winemaker moment. The Syrah is a year old. The experiment was fun, having people try both wines was a blast, and we talked about wine the rest of the night.
The difference was so slight.
My 2024 FWK Tavola Syrah arrived on Thursday and its bubbling away with lots of foam.
The difference was so slight.
My 2024 FWK Tavola Syrah arrived on Thursday and its bubbling away with lots of foam.
winemanden
Senior Member
We used to have a few winemakers in our club, who did just that. They didn't care too much if other people thought there was too much, or not enough tannin, or acid, lack of bouquet, whatever. It was their wine, they enjoyed making it, and drinking it.
Enough said!
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It does not strip out anything, it does not affect any color, flavor or aroma molecules, only yeast, bacteria, and any other foreign matter in the wine. It’s exceptionally good at preventing spoilage down the road.
I only use it or egg whites in the reds at our winery.
Horse apples. That's what comes out of the south end of a north bound horse. You are totally wrong.
I've provided conclusive evidence that K&C reduce aroma and introduce bitterness, which includes feedback from long term members of this forum. Good luck arguing with that.
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I have used it in thousands of gallons of commercial wine, it has never stripped any color, aromatics or flavors compared to control and has been in my experience the least damaging of all the fining agents. I am sure that home winemakers could be implementing all kinds of practices that could be contributing or causing the issue.
I will add that K&C and egg whites are the most gentle fining agents whereas bentonite is the most risky and usually does strip color, aromatics and flavors from wine.
I don’t like filtering as it definitely has stripped color from wines in the past.
So as far as a few forum members goes again it could be another practice causing it but I have my professional experience at multiple wineries that says it does not on top of actual studies from universities on it as a fining agent that you can freely locate and read online.
We can have differing opinions and I welcome it i am just correcting as you did what I feel to be incorrect information as I want to help home winemakers to make good wine you can get pretty close to commercial wine at home.
I appreciate the back and forth in the last 3 posts, I appreciate both perspectives. I am generally in the no filter / no fining camp but that is largely based on my favorite importer taking that position as gospel (Kermit Lynch). I don't think any little experiment I did at home with a split batch would be definitive, but am happy to go ahead with letting time do the work (and also fine if my wine is not clear or has occasional bottle sediment (but I'm also lucky to have lots of time, share wine only with non-fussy friends, etc.). Of course if I lose a batch to spoilage I might re-think my position, and really appreciate the Nebiollo020's professional experience and his distinguishing between egg white fining, and K&C vs. bentonite.
One of my problems with K&C is the lack of published testing results. I searched for 3+ years to find information regarding usage of K&C. And found nothing. It was quite frustrating. K&C is so common in kits I figured it would be a published result. But no.
So I did my own. I barrel aged 2 wines for 12 months, then bottled most of it as-is and fined 19 liters of each with K&C. This was November/December 2022. The following summer 4 tastings were conducted:
The NVA tasting was blind for the participants, and the last tasting was blind for my niece. At those points my personal opinion was irrelevant; I knew what the wines tasted like. Not leading the participants was critical.
I don't have a problem with K&C. It is in my best interests that K&C work fine.
Why?
Because it makes my life easier.
But my test results indicate that K&C impact the aroma and introduce bitterness. I've reported results. Beyond that? Not my monkey, not my circus.
Some people, including my son, liked the fined wine better. That has no impact on the results of the test.
So I did my own. I barrel aged 2 wines for 12 months, then bottled most of it as-is and fined 19 liters of each with K&C. This was November/December 2022. The following summer 4 tastings were conducted:
- My brother & me
- My son, my brother, & me
- a group in NVA, including my brother
- my niece & me
The NVA tasting was blind for the participants, and the last tasting was blind for my niece. At those points my personal opinion was irrelevant; I knew what the wines tasted like. Not leading the participants was critical.
I don't have a problem with K&C. It is in my best interests that K&C work fine.
Why?
Because it makes my life easier.
But my test results indicate that K&C impact the aroma and introduce bitterness. I've reported results. Beyond that? Not my monkey, not my circus.
Some people, including my son, liked the fined wine better. That has no impact on the results of the test.
I went back / forth for a few days on if I was going to post my results. Wasn't looking to create any drama for WMT.
We did not do a blind taste but I felt none of us were paying enough attention to the color / body / or structure to the wine. It was just a tasting of two separate glasses of wine. Pick the one you like the best ..... and it was close.
I enjoyed the experiment, although the results were not what I expected, it was still fun (for almost a year) waiting to see the results.
We did not do a blind taste but I felt none of us were paying enough attention to the color / body / or structure to the wine. It was just a tasting of two separate glasses of wine. Pick the one you like the best ..... and it was close.
I enjoyed the experiment, although the results were not what I expected, it was still fun (for almost a year) waiting to see the results.
