Okay, this might seem like a really dumb question but...How often do you degas? I very new to wine making and just degassed after the 10th day in the secondary fermenter. Directions say to wait 14 days and if wine is clear to bottle. But it says nothing about degassing again. So do I only degas the one time? This is a Vintners Reserve kit BTW. Thanks for the help.
WineXpert How often to degass?
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You should have stirred when you racked to glass, stir and stir and stir when stabilizing and adding finings, racking off the lees will help to degass further, filtering will remove almost all the CO2. Do not only stir round and round, also stir sideways really good. When your arm feels like it is about to fall off, stir some more.
If you do not have a drill mounted stirrer I would strongly advise you to purchase one as it is one of the most important tools for the home wine maker to have.
Here is the advise from Tim Vandergrift on the subject as posted in this discussion:
http://www.finevinewines.com/Wiz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3 00&KW=tim+vandergrift&PN=0&TPN=1
Just a quick redux of the stirring issue for my (Winexpert) kits:
<UL>
<LI>If you've fermented at the right starting volume, the right temperature, and you've achieved the recommended specific gravity levels, then you'll be able to stir the wine to de-gas within the time-frames specified in the instructions.
<LI>If the wine was started at anything other than the full 6 US-gallons (23 litres) or it was fermented cooler than 68 F, or if your gravity readings were not at or below the recommended levels when you did the process, you will not experience consistent success.
<LI>You only need to stir a Winexpert kit four times.
<UL>
<LI>On day one, you have to beat the snot out of the must to mix it properly. A good, arm-cracking one minute stir to froth it up and mix the juice and water will get you off to a good start and a thorough fermentation
<LI>On fining/stabilising day, after you've double-checked the SG, then you can first stir the kit without adding anything--and without racking it off the sediment! (Unless it's a Crushendo kit, but that's covered in the instructions--no racking for any other kit. If you choose to rack it, you will not experience consistent results. This first stirring will be to greatly de-gas the wine, prior to adding any of the fining agents or stablisers. Beat the hell out of it, for one full minute. Use a watch or clock--one minute is a lot longer than most people think. If you can scractch your head with your stirring hand after that one minute, you haven't stirred hard enough. It should be an all-out blizzard of effort that costs you all of your strength, and you should see spots in front of your eyes (see why I tell people to buy a drill-mounted stirring whip?)
<LI>Add the sorbate and the sulphite, and stir again, for one full minute. This time you may break one or two small bones in your stirring arm, but don't slow down--if anything, stir harder.
<LI>Add the fining agent and the F-Pack (if the kit has one) and stir for one more full minute. Have the paramedics standing by with a bag of ice to carry your stirring arm to the hospital where it can be re-attached. Top up with water and call it a day.
</LI>[/list]</LI>[/list]
Now, if you have fizzy wine after this regimen, you don't have a stirring issue. You have eiither got an incomplete or ongoing fermentation, or you're mistaking foam for fizz, or you may have an inicipient lactic acid bacterial infection that is making a bit of CO2 in the wine.
The amount of stirring described will reduce SO2 slightly in the kit: however, the amount it is reduced by is minimal, because rather than uptaking oxygen during this process, the wine out-gasses CO2, which actually scrubs some of the oxygen out of the wine.
If you stir at a time when the wine is not saturated with CO2, you may experience reduced SO2 and potentially expose the wine to oxidation. But then, why are you stirring wine if it's not fizzy?
Hope this helps outl
Tim Vandergrift
Technical Services Manager, Winexpert Limited.
Edited by: masta
Here is the advise from Tim Vandergrift on the subject as posted in this discussion:
http://www.finevinewines.com/Wiz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3 00&KW=tim+vandergrift&PN=0&TPN=1
Just a quick redux of the stirring issue for my (Winexpert) kits:
<UL>
<LI>If you've fermented at the right starting volume, the right temperature, and you've achieved the recommended specific gravity levels, then you'll be able to stir the wine to de-gas within the time-frames specified in the instructions.
<LI>If the wine was started at anything other than the full 6 US-gallons (23 litres) or it was fermented cooler than 68 F, or if your gravity readings were not at or below the recommended levels when you did the process, you will not experience consistent success.
<LI>You only need to stir a Winexpert kit four times.
<UL>
<LI>On day one, you have to beat the snot out of the must to mix it properly. A good, arm-cracking one minute stir to froth it up and mix the juice and water will get you off to a good start and a thorough fermentation
<LI>On fining/stabilising day, after you've double-checked the SG, then you can first stir the kit without adding anything--and without racking it off the sediment! (Unless it's a Crushendo kit, but that's covered in the instructions--no racking for any other kit. If you choose to rack it, you will not experience consistent results. This first stirring will be to greatly de-gas the wine, prior to adding any of the fining agents or stablisers. Beat the hell out of it, for one full minute. Use a watch or clock--one minute is a lot longer than most people think. If you can scractch your head with your stirring hand after that one minute, you haven't stirred hard enough. It should be an all-out blizzard of effort that costs you all of your strength, and you should see spots in front of your eyes (see why I tell people to buy a drill-mounted stirring whip?)
<LI>Add the sorbate and the sulphite, and stir again, for one full minute. This time you may break one or two small bones in your stirring arm, but don't slow down--if anything, stir harder.
<LI>Add the fining agent and the F-Pack (if the kit has one) and stir for one more full minute. Have the paramedics standing by with a bag of ice to carry your stirring arm to the hospital where it can be re-attached. Top up with water and call it a day.
</LI>[/list]</LI>[/list]
Now, if you have fizzy wine after this regimen, you don't have a stirring issue. You have eiither got an incomplete or ongoing fermentation, or you're mistaking foam for fizz, or you may have an inicipient lactic acid bacterial infection that is making a bit of CO2 in the wine.
The amount of stirring described will reduce SO2 slightly in the kit: however, the amount it is reduced by is minimal, because rather than uptaking oxygen during this process, the wine out-gasses CO2, which actually scrubs some of the oxygen out of the wine.
If you stir at a time when the wine is not saturated with CO2, you may experience reduced SO2 and potentially expose the wine to oxidation. But then, why are you stirring wine if it's not fizzy?
Hope this helps outl
Tim Vandergrift
Technical Services Manager, Winexpert Limited.
Edited by: masta
JohnF
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geocorn said:
I did the stirring by hand exactly as described above on
stabilizing/finning day and on Sat or Sun I'll be able to rack off the
sediment. I'm curious to see how well of a degassing job I did by hand.
It didn't produce much fizz when I did it so........we shall see.
John F
Okay, now I know you should not use distilled water when starting a wine kit but what about when you are topping up? If oxygen is bad for wine and water has oxygen in it would it not be best to top up with distilled water which is void of oxygen? Do most people top up with water or a like wine and which is better?
Don't worry about the amount of oxygen in water as the amount that is dissolved into the water is very small compared to air. (air is ~21% oxygen or 210,000 ppm and tap water has roughly 20 ppm)
If you have a like wine to top off go ahead and use that but water is fine also since the amount of dilution is small (3 cups of water is roughly 0.3% of the total)
If you have a like wine to top off go ahead and use that but water is fine also since the amount of dilution is small (3 cups of water is roughly 0.3% of the total)
Time will nothelp remove anyCO2 that is in the wine once bottled but you can remove the gas as you open each one by using a Vacu-Vin wine saver. This will pull vacuum on the bottle and allow the gas to come out of solution. Do this when the wine is at room temperature and chill after you remove the gas if you need to.
Another option is to pour the wine into another container such as a wine decantor...this action will also agitate the wine and help to remove the CO2.
Another option is to pour the wine into another container such as a wine decantor...this action will also agitate the wine and help to remove the CO2.
I had the same newbie problem. Now I have two batches with the "slightly gassy" thing going on. All I do is open the bottle and let it sit out for a bit (an hour or so). This tends to help.
My last 3 batches have been CO2 free. The only change I made was switching from a Whip stirrer to a MixStir device. The MixStir degasses to perfection! I wish I could go back and do it over starting with the Mixstir.
I've debated the issue and decided to become a non-filtering wine maker. Some have touted the benefits to removing CO2 and providing a certain amount of clarity, but I don't want to loose any flavor.
My last 3 batches have been CO2 free. The only change I made was switching from a Whip stirrer to a MixStir device. The MixStir degasses to perfection! I wish I could go back and do it over starting with the Mixstir.
I've debated the issue and decided to become a non-filtering wine maker. Some have touted the benefits to removing CO2 and providing a certain amount of clarity, but I don't want to loose any flavor.
geocorn
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I really hate to admit this, but I may have been incorrect on the effect that filtering has on kit wines. From what I have read lately, the molecules that contribute to flavor, color and body are way too small to get trapped in a filter. To be on the safe side, I would not use anything smaller than the polishing size.
It is still considered a best practice to not filter, but if you have a wine kit that will not clear, then filtering is acceptable.
It is still considered a best practice to not filter, but if you have a wine kit that will not clear, then filtering is acceptable.
MedPretzel
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Question (since I am degassing 4 wines with a drill-mounted wine whip): How can you tell if it's fizzy or just foam?
My wines seem to turn a white color when I stir, then there is foam at the top. How can I tell if it's degassed or if it's just foamy?
Thanks!
Martina (sick of degassing/stirring/degassing/stirring)......
Wait, I'm not degassing, my wine is.
My wines seem to turn a white color when I stir, then there is foam at the top. How can I tell if it's degassed or if it's just foamy?
Thanks!
Martina (sick of degassing/stirring/degassing/stirring)......
Wait, I'm not degassing, my wine is.
George, Thought you might find the following comments by Tim Vandergrift of interest.<?
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From our very useful (if a bit outdated, sorry!) filtering handout:
Winexpert kits are designed to produce clear, stable wine in a relatively short time, fermenting to dryness and falling clear with the winemaker only needing to follow the instructions for complete success. One thing that can enhance your kit wine, however, is filtering.
Filtering is the last thing you should do to your wine.
Filtering clears wine by removing yeast and fermentation debris. This prevents the material from breaking down during ageing, which in turn increases the wines’ stability. Stable wines are less likely to change their appearance or taste with time. When a significant number of the microscopic organisms that could re-start fermentation are removed, the amount of preservatives used in the wine can be reduced.
Filtering also pushes the wine along in its evolution. As wine ages, compounds combine and settle out, leaving sediment. This eventually leaves the wine with a smooth, clean flavour. Because filtration prevents the formation of this sediment, in a way it “force-ages” the wine, which tastes smoother while still young (this doesn't actually affect the true ageing or ageing capacity of the wine).
All filter machines operate on the same basic principle: they use a pump to force wine through a set of cellulose pads, which retain solid materials and allow clear wine to flow through. If your wine is very cloudy, a filter will clog too quickly to effectively clarify it. The large particles in a very young or very cloudy wine block the filter pads, causing the pressure inside the filter plates to rise. This in turn causes the wine to spray out the sides of the filter and puts stress on the pump and hoses. You can only filter a wine that is nearly clear already. Before filtering, your wine should have already been fined, and racked. Filtering is literally the last thing you should do to your wine, just before you bottle.
You will need to make sure that your wine is properly sulphited before it goes through the filter. There is a chance that filtering can introduce oxygen into the wine, but the correct level of sulphite will prevent oxygen from damaging the flavour and colour. The wine should be at 35–50 parts-per-million (PPM) of metabisulfite before filtering. This amounts to about one-half teaspoon of metabisulphite powder per 23 litres (3 grams). The amount of sulphite powder included in Winexpert kits will be around this level, although for long-term storage, you may wish to add an extra one-quarter teaspoon of sulphite to the carboy before filtering.
amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />From our very useful (if a bit outdated, sorry!) filtering handout:
Winexpert kits are designed to produce clear, stable wine in a relatively short time, fermenting to dryness and falling clear with the winemaker only needing to follow the instructions for complete success. One thing that can enhance your kit wine, however, is filtering.
Filtering is the last thing you should do to your wine.
Filtering clears wine by removing yeast and fermentation debris. This prevents the material from breaking down during ageing, which in turn increases the wines’ stability. Stable wines are less likely to change their appearance or taste with time. When a significant number of the microscopic organisms that could re-start fermentation are removed, the amount of preservatives used in the wine can be reduced.
Filtering also pushes the wine along in its evolution. As wine ages, compounds combine and settle out, leaving sediment. This eventually leaves the wine with a smooth, clean flavour. Because filtration prevents the formation of this sediment, in a way it “force-ages” the wine, which tastes smoother while still young (this doesn't actually affect the true ageing or ageing capacity of the wine).
All filter machines operate on the same basic principle: they use a pump to force wine through a set of cellulose pads, which retain solid materials and allow clear wine to flow through. If your wine is very cloudy, a filter will clog too quickly to effectively clarify it. The large particles in a very young or very cloudy wine block the filter pads, causing the pressure inside the filter plates to rise. This in turn causes the wine to spray out the sides of the filter and puts stress on the pump and hoses. You can only filter a wine that is nearly clear already. Before filtering, your wine should have already been fined, and racked. Filtering is literally the last thing you should do to your wine, just before you bottle.
You will need to make sure that your wine is properly sulphited before it goes through the filter. There is a chance that filtering can introduce oxygen into the wine, but the correct level of sulphite will prevent oxygen from damaging the flavour and colour. The wine should be at 35–50 parts-per-million (PPM) of metabisulfite before filtering. This amounts to about one-half teaspoon of metabisulphite powder per 23 litres (3 grams). The amount of sulphite powder included in Winexpert kits will be around this level, although for long-term storage, you may wish to add an extra one-quarter teaspoon of sulphite to the carboy before filtering.
rgecaprock
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I've made 5 kits so far and haven't noticed a fizzing problem. I have Curtis do the heavy lifting but don't trust him with the stirring...he is to rambunctous......so I must be stronger than I think. What do you use to stir with? None of the long spoons I have fit into the carboy so I use the other end. I'll ask for a drill for Xmas.
Ramona
Ramona
i used the whip for the first couple batches and had slightly fizzy wine, changed to the mixstir before bottling, and whipped the hell out of it, i still had a slight fizz in the cab, but like hollowoak does, i just wait half hour to let it decant and it's a huge difference... just bought an aerater (spelling??) for $20, so hopefully that will speed up the waiting process
