How long before bottling?

[Old Philosopher]

Guys, were these commercial "purple" plums you used, or the Italian prune plums? If they were the big, purple juicy plums from the store, there may have been more sprayed on them than just wax. I dunno.... I've heard other similar stories with those. I've only used my home grown Italian plums.

 

[Turock]

Many things take place during bulk aging and I would encourage the doubters to do some reading on this subject at the Lab sites and other good sites like EC Kraus. Why do you think so many people here have issues after bottling? If you could clear a wine in a couple weeks, no one would complain about cloudy wine in the bottle, excessive sediment in the bottle, or the sorbate not working. Anyone who doesn't believe in the bulk aging process just doesn't understand the chemistry of what's going on.

We've made ALOT of plum wine over the years using all sorts of varieties. We always wash fruit before using it, but don't pay special attention to the wax. However, we always use bentonite in the primary. All our plum clears very nice. So when using the whole fruit, always bentonite. It does a good job on protein haze and bentonite heat stabilizes the wine too.

 

[Old Philosopher]

..... Anyone who doesn't believe in the bulk aging process just doesn't understand the chemistry of what's going on.

... So when using the whole fruit, always bentonite. It does a good job on protein haze and bentonite heat stabilizes the wine too.

So save me some reading time here. You're saying bulk aging is the route to go? So at what point does one decide it's time to bottle?

Maybe one of the reasons I get fast clearing is that I don't ferment on the fruit. I extract the juice and go from there. The other thing that might help me is I can set the bulk containers to clear in about 40 degrees in my root cellar. I read somewhere the cold helps.

 

[Turock]

It's WAY too much to type here. I suggest you access the UC Davis website on their winemaking course. You'll have a real appreciation for all the chemical changes that take place during bulk aging---it's more than just clearing a wine!!!! But I'll give a small over-view below.

How to know when to bottle---this why bulk aging is so important. So many people on wine forums talk about stabilizing wine. Most of the time, they are alluding to using sorbate. But the real secret is that when you are bulk aging THAT is stabilizing a wine. Haze, precipitates, and sediments form colloides and then form large agglutinated complexes. Given enough time for these polymerzation and agglutination reactions to take place, the particulate matter drops out and can be removed thru racking. This removes these unstable components from the wine, thus stabilizing it. Now there are conditions that depend on this happening in any given time frame. But essentially, 1 to 1 1/2 years is the time frame we always work with.

Aging also gets rid of unwanted esters that may form due to microbes, which are also unstable. Given time, these dissipate and improve the wine too. Plus, aging stabilizes tannins, pigments and color. Bitter or astringent compounds form large clusters and drop out too.

Yes, juice has less debris in it as far as clearing goes. But as you see---bulk aging isn't just about wine being clear.

Cold stabilization depends on the use of carbonate. Usually potassium carbonate. If you are using calcium carbonate to increase PH, it will drop out the acids at room temp. And also--believe it or not, CS depends on PH and is used more for acid reduction than clearing. I'm not a fan of CS for any reason other than acid reduction, but agree that if you use bentonite in the secondary and still have cloudy wine after a few months, some chilling of the wine seems to aid in clearing. Cool temps are better for wine storage than warm temps--so that right there is a good reason for storing the wine in the root cellar.

 

[Old Philosopher]

Thanks!
What I know about wine chemistry you could put in a thimble and rattle like a BB in a boxcar. I doubt I'll ever get that sophisticated in my approach. I'm just happy if it isn't cloudy, tastes like the fruit from which it was made, produces the desired effect, and gets compliments. I'm calling it a success.

I wish I had the resources and space to keep a 50 gallon barrel of wine sitting for 18 months. If just ONE of my bottles goes a year without being consumed, I'm lucky. I have a small (500ml) bottle of crabapple wine that's just over a year old now. I'm expecting it will be pretty good come Thanksgiving this year. It's pretty unlikely that someone will find a 2013 vintage bottle of wine in my cellar 20 years from now.

 

[Turock]

I have to tell you----I became a much better winemaker after I started doing some serious studying on the subject. When you know WHY you're doing WHAT you're doing, anything you approach is going to turn out better. Just because you're not a professional doesn't mean you shouldn't use professional technique. And ALL winemakers should learn what "best practices" are--why they're used. You will be far more successful with what you're doing at the primary, and exactly HOW to design the wine you're looking for.

I'm a perfectionist kind of person---no matter what I do, whether it's a tiling project, woodworking, doing body work on my antique cars, or winemaking---I'm always reading and studing technique to give me more tools for success. I don't like failure just because I was in too much of a hurry to do my homework. Getting more info on proper technique is not sophistication---it is a tool to be used to get better results.

Well, we don't use barrels--no room. However, because of the need for bulk aging, blending, oaking, MLF's----this is how we came to own 80 carboys. We've never bottled too early just because we needed a carboy--we went out and bought more. Built carboy racks and made a kitchen setup with cabinets in order to make use of every inch of space. Where there's a will--there's a way.

 

[Old Philosopher]

I came to this site after a miserable failure with a "home recipe" by some guy who claimed to make 200 gallons of wine each year. Phew!!! He should sell it as bio-fuel.
Anyway, the knowledge I gained here got me on the right track. So much misinformation out there, ya know?
I used to be a perfectionist myself. I've mellowed over time. I don't let myself get so bogged down in details that I loose site of my goal. I still put together a woodshed as if I were building a cabinet, but in other areas, I don't get totally anal.
I agree 100% that if you know WHY you're doing something, you can repeat and adjust the process accordingly. I used to be "process oriented", but now I'm more "goal oriented". Must be a function of age, or something.
I guess I have to say that my wine making over the past 3 years hasn't become a "hobby". It's just part of my Fall Harvest. What I'm really saying is that I don't have to educate myself in chemistry to know that I have to put sodium in my veggie preserves to maintain color, or that I need to blanch fruit before drying. I just take the 'expert's' word for it, and do it. I approach my "wine harvest" much the same way.
I appreciate very much the time you've taken to explain the aging process. It was educational, and gives me a better understanding of why what I'm doing seems to work. I just need more patience.

 

[Turock]

I enjoyed that response. I've always been a student of the world--working hard to find what's TRUTH and what's just BS or opinion. I really make a considerable attempt on these forums to give people the truth, and not just my opinion. But I realize that not everyone is as intense as I am. And that's OK.

I see where you're at---a part-time winemaker just to utilize fruit and not all that interested in the machinations of wine science. But then you joined this forum and have the advantage of all the knowledge that the wine geeks, who have to study everything, have. If you ask the question we will answer!! So you still get the knowledge--that's a good thing.

Yes--when you know why you're doing something, then you can repeat the success. Reproducibility is very important in winemaking. We want our wine to taste the same year upon year. That's exactly why we began being far more serious about what we do.

Patience is everything in winemaking. When you see how well that works, then there's the reason to do it. And then you become even more patient because you see the benefits of doing it. Good luck with that plum--let her age up. One of our plums from last year is OK--but it needs more aging time to firm the flavors.

 

[Old Philosopher]

I enjoyed that response. I've always been a student of the world--working hard to find what's TRUTH and what's just BS or opinion. I really make a considerable attempt on these forums to give people the truth, and not just my opinion.....

LOL! That's my philosophy, also. Facts vs opinion. I use "IMHO" caveat with wild abandon when speaking only from experience.
My Dad used to say, "I may be wrong, but I ain't lyin'."

 

[GreginND]

My plum was from my tree - smaller yellow/reddish plums.