WineXpert From kits to vines?

[rexmor]

This is my first post after finding this site, and I would appreciate some advice advice from experienced kit makers, especially if you also have experience in making wine from grapes.


I am a long time [40 years] wine afficianado [I would hesitate to sayconnisseur, although I have been fortunate enough to taste quite a number ofwonderful andexpensive wines during the last four decades]. A couple of years ago I retired and moved to rural San Diego County, with a couple of acres surrounding my house. Ihave justinstalled 70 Sangiovese vines, with plans to put in another 30-40 of somethingdifferent to blend with it [possibly Merlot for a "Super Tuscan" blend]. I have also partitioned off one half of the fourth bay of my garage and am making it into a temperature controlled room for fermenting, racking and wine storage. Several localfriends have from 35-200 vines and have already begun wine making. We will sharea crusher/destemmer and bottling equipment.


Since I am at least three years from being able to make wine from my own fruit, I had planned to beginpurchasinggrapes next fall so that I can start making wine and gaining experience while my vines mature. With this asbackground, my questionsare as follows:


1] Would kit wine making be worthwhile for me to gain experience, or is the process too simplifiedto suitthat purpose?


2] I am wondering whether the kit wine would be disappointing as far as being too grapey, or too sweet? [I'm not expecting deeply complex flavors, but am hoping for something that would be at least as good as an $8-10 commercial wine I might purchase at World Market].


3] Does anyone here have good sources for purchased grapes which you would recommend?

 

[smurfe]

I think the kit making would be to simplified to give you experience as a commercial wine maker but I do think you would be surprised as to the quality of wines that are made. I can make a wine with a kit as fine as ANY you will ever buy at World Market. I have a World Market here and that is where I buy my "comparing" wines at

I think many under estimate these kits and the quality of wines produced. I made one kit with a crushed grape pack in it that is raves with "connoisseurs" around here and they can't believe I make it in my own kitchen and it has only aged like 6 moths or so I guess (I bottled it as soon as I got power after Hurricane Katrina or was it Rita?) Anyway. They put out good stuff and with age you can't tell them from one you bought at world Market.


If you can't find a local source of fresh grapes I would recommend that you find or order pails of juice in the varietal you prefer. There are numerous places you can get this from such as http://www.americanwinegrape.com/juicekit.htmYou can use the processed juice but all of your own chemicals, yeasts and the such to make your own wine as you would if you pressed the grapes yourself.


An even better source would probably be http://www.winebusiness.com/GrapesBulkWine/You can buy bulk from the vendors there and many if not all are in California. You might have to take a day trip but you should be able to find a wealth of grapes in you general vicinity.


Smurfe

 

[djcoop]

I totally agree w/ Smurfe. I think you will be extremly surprised as to the quality of the kits. Here in the Dallas/FW area, there are numerous successful micro wineries that use nothing but the same kits we order from George and their wines are excellent. Talk with George so that he may best educate you on the best wine of choice for you. There are many options from premier wines that will need to be bottle aged for quite some time, to wines that are more drinkable after 3-6 months, to light wine cooler type wines that are awesome for those warm summer days outside that are ready to drink after bottling (3-4 days).


Besides, you going to have to do something with that free time as your baby vines mature!!!

 

[PolishWineP]

I concure with the above information. You'll end up with some really good wines, a good understanding of the basic process and you'll get familiar with the equipment.

 

[Funky Fish]

I'll add my concurrence to this thread!

I started out with kit wines. Even though you don't have to do the same adjusting and testing (for acid, for example) that you would with fresh grapes, kits are a great way to get some of the basic steps down. They also help you get familiar with some of the steps (fermentation, when to rack, clearing, stabilization, etc.) that you will have with fresh grapes.


Last year, I did a batch from fresh grapes (concords), and, frommy experiencewith kits and the information I had read,I didn't have any problems or really even feel like I may have been doing something wrong. And now we havea batch of a soft, semi-sweet table wine that my wife absolutely loves!Edited by: Funky Fish

 

[rexmor]

Thanks to all the replies...it really helps to get some positive reinforcement. I take it that "George" is someone at Fine Vine Wines?

 

[rexmor]

PS.....Smurfe, I really enjoyed your pictorial "how to"...you were definitely having a lot of fun, which is what wine is all about.

 

[masta]

Welcome rexmor,


George is Fine Vine Wines and thanks to him we have this great forum to share knowledge and build friendships!


Depending on your volume and what you plan to use for fermenters and secondary vessels, getting some equipment to make kits will come in handy when the vines mature and alsogive you a better understanding of the whole process.


I too would agree that you can make some really great wine with kits that will satisfy your tasteand save you a bunch of money to invest into the winery!

 

[smurfe]

PS.....Smurfe, I really enjoyed your pictorial "how to"...you were definitely having a lot of fun, which is what wine is all about.

Thanks, I hope to finish it up real soon. I had a problem with my corker when I went to bottle that batch and wasn't able to photograph the process. I have a couple other kits ready probably this week so I will just take off from where I left off with these kits to finish the process.


Smurfe

 

[peterCooper]

Rexmor,

I would agree that producing a kit wine is a simplified procedure.
However you may find value in going though it a couple of times to instill
some basics, especially the clean and sanitise procedures. As you have a
few years before work on your own grapes you can afford the luxury of
developing your skills over time.

Once you have the kit procedure down (two or three kits over six months)
you can branch out to fruit wines to establish some more sophisticated
procedures, and then you'll be ready for your own grapes.

About the only thing this will not teach is hw to scale your operation to
commercial or semi-commercial levels,Edited by: peterCooper

 

[rexmor]

Sorry, but fruit wines are not EVER in my plans....no offense to anyone here who enjoys them, but that's something I personallyhaven'tliked since the firstcouple ofyears oftasting drytable wine almost forty years ago. I have to admit that one of the reasons I was hesitant about trying the kits was that so many here seem to like both the fruit wine and the kit wines, and it made me wonder if the tastes of the kit wines will be too sweet for my taste.


My plans for the next step after the kitsare to purchase some grapes from one of the available sources in Sonoma next Fall.


There also seems to be a little confusion...I'm not planning on a "commercial" effort, just a serious home vineyard/winery operation like those which are pretty common in Italy. One of the things which impressed me on a long trip through Tuscany/Umbria/Piedmont a couple of years ago was the way almost every home seemed to have vines, and homemade wine. Either wine for me and my friends, or "steak marinade" for me and my friends is my goal!

 

[pkcook]

rexmore,


I don't believe you will find any of the varieties of dry wine kits any sweeter thancommercial wines of the same style, unless you purposely make it that way. If you get the chance, visit the Winexpert web site. The medals they have won in the International Amateur Wine Competition from 02-05 are pretty impressive.


"Country" or fruit wines can befinisheddry, sweet or anywhere in between. Personally, I ferment all my fruit wines completely dry and then sweeten to taste.I leave some completely dry. like my cranberry. It is very similar to a dry red grape table wine, but has its own unique qualities. Some I make semi-sweet, and some I finish in dessert style. It just depends on the wine and your taste.


Good luck with your vineyard! Wish I had the land to plant one.

 

[Brandst]

I have a friend at work that lived in Napa for a while and she refuses to try a fruit wine. One day I'm going to take one to her without telling her it is fruit and I'm sure she'll enjoy it. I have tasted wines from grapes and fruit that make me gag, but I have tasted wines from both that I will forever keep on hand to drink. If there is a wine making club in your area, or a wine making shop that holds tastings, go visit and taste the various fruit wines. I'm almost positive you will be pleasantly suprised and want to make one of your own. The owners of the closest supply shop to me hold tastings of their wine and club member wines every couple months. I happend in there during the last one and need to get their blueberry recipe as it was delightful, but one of the club members had a very dry blueberry that was 16% abv that was also great. Taste as many as you can, you never know what you'll like till you try it.





Steve

 

[smurfe]

Sorry, but fruit wines are not EVER in my plans....no offense to anyone here who enjoys them, but that's something I personallyhaven'tliked since the firstcouple ofyears oftasting drytable wine almost forty years ago. I have to admit that one of the reasons I was hesitant about trying the kits was that so many here seem to like both the fruit wine and the kit wines, and it made me wonder if the tastes of the kit wines will be too sweet for my taste.


My plans for the next step after the kitsare to purchase some grapes from one of the available sources in Sonoma next Fall.


There also seems to be a little confusion...I'm not planning on a "commercial" effort, just a serious home vineyard/winery operation like those which are pretty common in Italy. One of the things which impressed me on a long trip through Tuscany/Umbria/Piedmont a couple of years ago was the way almost every home seemed to have vines, and homemade wine. Either wine for me and my friends, or "steak marinade" for me and my friends is my goal!

No offense taken. There are no wine snobs here. Thats why most of us like ALL wines. I personally don't like sweet wines but my wife and friends do so I make both. I like my wine so dry a puff of dust comes out my mouth after drinking a glass.


I will say that at times I will enjoy a semi-sweet blueberry but mostly it is Cabernet Sauvignon or a Red Burgundy for me and I can make it as good as any vineyard right here in my kitchen with a kit. I will admit though, if I had easy access to the grapes or lived in a climate to grow my own Cabernet's or Merlot or the such, I would be doing exactly what you are doing. Not because kits are substandard but for the enjoyment and experience.


Smurfe

 

[rexmor]

Thanks again.....I had no idea that there was such a thing as dry fruit wine. I've certainly never seen one anywhere.


I had an Uncle back in Colorado who was a serious fruit wine maker [all VERY sweet], and he took me to a competition there once. It seemed to be one sweet wine after another, with an occasional semi-sweet for "variety". After awhile, I felt my teeth start to itch. I suppose that colored my attitude.

 

[smurfe]

Actually most people ferment their fruit wines to dry and then sweeten them to taste. I like you don't share the same "taste"

In my opinion a dry blueberry or elderberry is very reminicent of a Merlot or a Cab particularly if you oak it. Hopefully you will have the chance to try some sometime.


A girl at works Dad makes Muscadine wine. She brought us a couple bottles and when I tasted it I felt the cavities begin to form in my teeth.

It was as sweet or sweeter than the batch of Joe M's Mead I made and mine came out sweet. If you have seen the movie Super Troopers where they chug the maple syrup, I got the same sensation.

Whats is really funny is I gave them a bottle of my White Zin I made which is a mildly sweet wine and he didn't like it. Said it was WAY to dry for his tastes. I guess he likes pure sugar. So as you can see, different strokes for different folks.


Smurfe

 

[pkcook]

rexmore,


Not sure of your background so I apologize if I'm providing you with "old" information.


Most winemakers use a hydrometer to measure the specific gravity (viscosity)of the must (juice)before inoculating it with yeast. Assugar is added the hydrometer floats higher in the must due to increased viscosity. A scale on the hydrometer willshow thelevels. For Country wine makers, the hydrometer is very valuable due to the low natural sugar content in most fruits. We have to add sugar to a level sufficient for a level of alcohol we are seeking. Most wine grapes are "sugar sufficient" without additional sugar added. This is why the refractometer is such a valuable tool to the vineyard owner. He can use this tool to tell when the grapes are at the optimum sugar level for winemaking before picking.


Most wine yeasts today will ferment to an alcohol level between 10 and 18 percent. To get a sweet wine, you have a few options. First you can add enough sugar to the must that the yeast will die from the alcohol content in the must before consuming all the sugar leaving you with a sweet, normally high alcohol wine. Another way is to monitor the must during fermentation and stopping the fermentation (withchemicals)at a specific alcohol or sweetnesslevel (testing with thehydrometer). Thelast (easiest)way is to start with the sugar amount that will produce an alcohol content to your liking then match that with a yeast that will handle the alcohol content you desire and let the yeast ferment to dry. If you prefer a sweeter wine add sugar before bottling, if not leave dry.


Sorry so long, I shortened as much as I could.

 

[earl]

rexmor


Something you may want totry is purchasing bulk wine from a local winery and then bottling ityourself. You could be awine "negociant." I don't mean as a commercial venture but it could be a good way to learn how to work with large quantities of wine. Check out this link:


[url]http://www.wine.com/aboutwine/glossary.asp?g_id=101&Lett er=N[/url]


This could getyou on your way with bottling and labeling. Give you a few years to perfect your technique before your vines are mature. Here inColorado if you get on the wine board's website you can buy excess wine and grapesfrom wineries.I've thought about trying this but getting a 200 gallon barrel in my basement would be quite a chore

earlEdited by: earl

 

[rexmor]

This is a great board for information sharing.....lots of fun people, too.


Actually, I did know all of the stuff about hydrometers, etc. What I didn't know was the information about fruit needing sugar, etc. I guess I DID know thatit was theoretically possibletomake dryfruit wine, just didn't realize that anyone ever actuallydid it, or that it could be good, since I've never encountered one. Can't really get too excited about it yet, but maybe I will have a chance totaste one sometime and change my mind.


I'm not really going to be working with a large quantity of wine even when my vines mature. I'm planning on peaking out at about 120 vines which, with closepruning for quality purposes,will only produce around 250-300 bottles a year when they reach maturity. However, you never know, if the wine turns out to be decent, and I actually do getthe promisedhelp from some of my neighbors, I might take out someorange trees and put in more vines. We can't begin to eat all of the oranges we're producing now, and I doubt I would have that problem with wine!

 

[pkcook]

Hey rexmore,


How about some "Orange" wine or the "Ancient Orange Melomel?"

Grapes and fresh oranges! I'm jealous