Finishing my plum wine

[rhodesengr]

Hi all. I thought I would start another thread to get some guidance on steps to finish my plum wine.
My original thread is here
https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/ec-1118-slow.77856/I have something like 40 gallons. There's what's shown here plus two more 5 gallon carboys.



The youngest has been in secondary since July 21 and the oldest a few weeks before that. So all of it has been in secondary over a month. I have not done any SG measurements since going into secondary. The bubble rate on the air locks is very low if it is even still bubbling. So my questions are:
How do I know when do to the first rack?
At that first rack should I be adding K-Meta alone or with Sorbate?
The wine certainly hasn't clarified so would I add clarifiers at a second racking?

Just want to get a sense of my next steps.

 

[Ohio Bob]

I would recommend racking at the 3 month point. Add Kmeta at this time and top off the carboys.

Time is a clarifier, but if you want to clarify now I wouldn’t object. Do not add sorbate unless you intend to back sweeten.

 

[ChuckD]

I would recommend racking at the 3 month point. Add Kmeta at this time and top off the carboys.

Time is a clarifier, but if you want to clarify now I wouldn’t object. Do not add sorbate unless you intend to back sweeten.

Agreed. Time is your friend. Once you are off of gross lees you are in the “procrastination zone”. If you added k-meta at racking you are good for at least three months. If your wine is still off-gassing CO2 and you keep it topped up and under airlock I am ok stretching that by a few months. At this point the only reason to use clarifiers is if you want to bottle early.

You have plenty of wine there… perhaps degass , clarify and bottle a carboy. Let the rest age longer and compare.

If you let it age for 9 months or more you can even back sweeten and skip the sorbate as all the yeast should be dead by then.

 

[winemaker81]

Bubbling in the airlock doesn't tell you anything meaningful. At this point, it's highly likely fermentation is complete. What was the SG prior to bulk aging?

How much sediment do you have? That's a factor to consider. If it's more than 3/8", there probably fruit solids in there, so I'd rack sooner than later.

Add K-meta at each racking and at bottling. I agree with Bob, don't add sorbate until you backsweeten, and if you don't, you don't need sorbate.

If you let it age for 9 months or more you can even back sweeten and skip the sorbate as all the yeast should be dead by then.

I tried this with an elderberry that was 13 months old, and got fermentation in the bottle. I'm going to test it again, but at this time I cannot recommend backsweetening an unfortified with without sorbate.

 

[rhodesengr]

I appreciate the replies but I need some clarification. I want to get this right.

I would recommend racking at the 3 month point. Add Kmeta at this time and top off the carboys.

Are you saying to add K-Meta now but not rack for another 2 months? Or add K-Meta when I do rack in 2 more months?

Once you are off of gross lees you are in the “procrastination zone”. If you added k-meta at racking you are good for at least three months.

By gross lees, do you mean the lees in my primary (first week) of fermentation? I did not add K-Meta when I transferred from the primary buckets to the secondary carboys ion the photo. The only K-Meta I have added so far was right when I prepared the must 24 hours before the yeast was added.

What was the SG prior to bulk aging?

How much sediment do you have? That's a factor to consider. If it's more than 3/8", there probably fruit solids in there, so I'd rack sooner than later.

Is your reference to "bulk aging" the same as "secondary fermentation"? Other than transferring from the primary bucket to what I have now, I have not done anything else yet. All I did when I did the transfer was filter with mesh to remove most of the pulp. I tried to transfer from primary when I was at about 1.010 or so. If that counts as a racking, it was at about day 5 for each batch. One batch went a day or two too long and was below 1.000 when I transferred. There is some sediment now but hard to see exactly how much. 3/8 of an inch may be about right. I tried various lighting angles but can't get a good read on it.

I may try to back sweeten some of it as I have a lot so it would be interesting to try that on some. I had one mason jar that I tried to cold crash in the fridge. I have another thread about that. The cold crashing didn't work but we drank it last weekend. It was in the fridge for about a month (since the last batch went into secondary). It tasted pretty good. A bit fizzy and a bit yeasty but several family members drank some and everyone liked it. If the rest of tastes like that jar without the fizz and yeast, it doesn't need any sweetening.

 

[rhodesengr]

I checked one of the smaller 1 gallon jugs. There is about 1/4" of lees. I think the 5 gallon carboys are about the same.

 

[winemaker81]

Is your reference to "bulk aging" the same as "secondary fermentation"?

Actually, no. Secondary fermentation is MLF (malolactic fermentation). A lot of folks refer to the finishing of fermentation under airlock as secondary fermentation, but it's not, it's all one yeast ferment.

Bulk aging is generally what happens between the first post-fermentation racking and bottling, so I used the term incorrectly.

Technically, racking is siphoning (IIRC), but we generally refer to any transfer of wine from one container to another as "racking". Pouring works.

Note -- there are numerous racking schedules in use by experienced winemakers on this forum. There's no one "must do" method for this; there is variation. I explain why I do what I do, and hopefully this helps you decide what you want to do.

Gross lees is sediment that contains a high percentage of fruit pulp, which can be fine grained enough to go through a mesh bag. Fine lees is yeast hulls. Gross lees will decompose and can impart off aromas and flavors, while fine lees will add complexity. Lookup "sur lie" and "bâtonnage".

Gross lees supposedly drops within 24 to 72 hours of the end of fermentation. Your bag probably got most of it.

I typically do the first post-fermentation racking in 1 to 3 weeks. I let the gross lees drop and wait for the lees to compact, e.g., the thickness decreases a little bit (this can be hard to see). I then rack, as it minimizes wine loss. I wrote this post about how I reduce wine loss at racking, you may find it useful.

I thought about it -- if it were me, I'd rack all containers now to ensure gross lees is gone, and add K-meta.

You have numerous containers -- rack each into a separate container and taste test. It's unlikely but not impossible for a container to go bad, or just have less desirable aromas and flavors. Any wine that's sub-optimal, even if it's not bad, keep separate.

Cold crashing AKA cold stabilization reduces tartaric acid. If you don't have excess tartaric acid, it does nothing. However, cold will help precipitate suspended solids, so there may be a benefit.

Most fruit wines benefit from at least a bit of backsweetening. At bottling time make sugar syrup and do a bit of bench testing to see what you like. You may bottle some dry and some with varying levels of backsweetening.

Age another 3 months, then taste test. This is one I'd probably bottle between 4 and 6 months of age. I've not made Plum wine and don't know the potential longevity -- I bottle shorter-lived wines earlier and open them sooner.

 

[ChuckD]

I appreciate the replies but I need some clarification. I want to get this right.


Are you saying to add K-Meta now but not rack for another 2 months? Or add K-Meta when I do rack in 2 more months?



By gross lees, do you mean the lees in my primary (first week) of fermentation? I did not add K-Meta when I transferred from the primary buckets to the secondary carboys ion the photo. The only K-Meta I have added so far was right when I prepared the must 24 hours before the yeast was added.


Is your reference to "bulk aging" the same as "secondary fermentation"? Other than transferring from the primary bucket to what I have now, I have not done anything else yet. All I did when I did the transfer was filter with mesh to remove most of the pulp. I tried to transfer from primary when I was at about 1.010 or so. If that counts as a racking, it was at about day 5 for each batch. One batch went a day or two too long and was below 1.000 when I transferred. There is some sediment now but hard to see exactly how much. 3/8 of an inch may be about right. I tried various lighting angles but can't get a good read on it.

I may try to back sweeten some of it as I have a lot so it would be interesting to try that on some. I had one mason jar that I tried to cold crash in the fridge. I have another thread about that. The cold crashing didn't work but we drank it last weekend. It was in the fridge for about a month (since the last batch went into secondary). It tasted pretty good. A bit fizzy and a bit yeasty but several family members drank some and everyone liked it. If the rest of tastes like that jar without the fizz and yeast, it doesn't need any sweetening.

Yes, Gross lees is fruit solids. Fine lees is the hulls of dead yeast cells.

I’ve never made plum wine so I’m not sure how “messy” it is. With grapes and apple I get probably 80-90% of the solids out when I transfer from primary then I rack when the rest of the gross lees drop… usually a few weeks at most. I add k-meta every time I rack, even out of primary.

Since you didn’t add k-meta after primary I would rack again now and add it. Then you are bulk aging and any further lees that drop will be “fine”. While some still adhere to the “every three months” tacking schedule I ( and many others) do not. I would let it age several months and not rack again until bottling. I would however add k-meta every three or four months… to do this I remove a little wine, taste it, then mix the k-meta into the sample and pour it back in the carboy.

Again, if you are impatient try bottling some as soon as it clears and let some age longer.

 

[winemaker81]

While some still adhere to the “every three months” tacking schedule I ( and many others) do not. I would let it age several months and not rack again until bottling. I would however add k-meta every three or four months… to do this I remove a little wine, taste it, then mix the k-meta into the sample and pour it back in the carboy.

Ditto on the not racking every 3 months. Some of my wines go into barrel and are not racked for 12+ months. But definitely add K-meta every ~3 months.

Also ditto on tasting the wine. I taste every time I touch the wines. I joke about quality control (although it is), and for the less experienced winemakers, it's an education. Record notes every time you taste the wine, and put the notes away. Post bottling, open a bottle every 2 or 3 months and record your impressions. One year after bottling, read your notes, first to last.

 

[rhodesengr]

OK. Thanks guys. I will start racking. I was definitely going to taste test. That is half the fun. I know that some of my batches have too much head space. It wasn't until the last batch that I figured out the right amounts of fruit and water to get slightly over 5 gallons. If the various batches are all ok and similar in taste, I can fill in the head spaces with wine from the 1 gallon jugs. Consolidate a little.

 

[winemaker81]

OK. Thanks guys. I will start racking. I was definitely going to taste test. That is half the fun. I know that some of my batches have too much head space. It wasn't until the last batch that I figured out the right amounts of fruit and water to get slightly over 5 gallons. If the various batches are all ok and similar in taste, I can fill in the head spaces with wine from the 1 gallon jugs. Consolidate a little.

You might homogenize the wine in groups, depending on what containers you have. Then start racking into the first carboy, and keep filling until you run out of wine.

 

[Raptor99]

In addition to the excellent advice above, I want to clarify one point:

Actually, no. Secondary fermentation is MLF (malolactic fermentation). A lot of folks refer to the finishing of fermentation under airlock as secondary fermentation, but it's not, it's all one yeast ferment.

Many of us will rack from the primary fermentation bucket into a carboy when the fermentation is nearly finished, around SG 1.010. So the fermentation is finished in the carboy, which you could call the secondary fermentation container. This is often called simply "secondary," but it is misleading to call it "secondary fermentation" because there is only one fermentation using yeast. The yeast don't care whether they are in a different container.

After the first racking, the wine in the carboy finishes up fermentation and begins bulk aging. After about 1 month it might be necessary to rack again if there is too much sediment in the carboy.

MLF is another "fermentation" using a bacteria that converts a portion of the malic acid to lactic acid. It is useful when the must has an excessive amount of malic acid. It also adds body to the wine. I have made several dozen different fruit wines, and I have never used MLF.

 

[rhodesengr]

Thanks guys. I am learning and trying to use the correct terminology. I am going to start racking this weekend. I will get some taste tests and SG readings.

 

[rhodesengr]

I racked and consolidated my wine on Saturday. Ended up with 7 of the 5 gallon carboys and two of the 1 gallon bottles. I tasted every batch and other than tasting carbon dioxide'y, none of it has gone bad or anything disastrous. That was a big relief. K-meta added.

So the two things left to more fully understand are degassing and clarifying. Seems that enough time takes care of both.
Any reason is actively degass or just wait a few months?
At what point should I use a clarifier?

 

[winemaker81]

So the two things left to more fully understand are degassing and clarifying.

Wines normally degas, given sufficient time. The colder the storage conditions, the longer it takes. Typically it's 2 to 6 months, but sometimes a wine is simply stubborn. In recent years I degas all wines by stirring with a drill-mounted stirring rod for 1 minutes, changing direction half way through. This does not completely degas the wine; rather it expels a lot of CO2 and jump starts the process. This is not a necessary step, but IME the wine clears faster, as trapped CO2 will hold particles in suspension.

Wines also normally clear on their own, although depending on the wine, it can take up to a year. The heavier the wine, the more "stuff" there is to precipitate. Although I've used numerous fining agents, I'm now leaning towards using them only when necessary.

Protein and pectin haze can be problems -- solved by bentonite and pectic enzyme, respectively.

I suggest you give your wines 3 months in bulk, then consider if you need a fining agent.

 

[rhodesengr]

Sounds like a plan. Because I have so much, I think I may clarify one batch in about a month so I can get to drinking it sooner.

 

[BigDaveK]

If you let it age for 9 months or more you can even back sweeten and skip the sorbate as all the yeast should be dead by then.

Ditto what Bryan said. I had one in bulk a little over 12 months, refermented in the bottle, popped a cork. Other corks were halfway out.

 

[terrie morris]

I would recommend racking at the 3 month point. Add Kmeta at this time and top off the carboys.

Time is a clarifier, but if you want to clarify now I wouldn’t object. Do not add sorbate unless you intend to back sweeten.

Just a silly question I'm new at this, why do you have to add all this Xtra stuff sorbets, clarifier? I thought you just add sugar and yeast ?

 

[Ohio Bob]

Just a silly question I'm new at this, why do you have to add all this Xtra stuff sorbets, clarifier? I thought you just add sugar and yeast ?

Sorbate prevents yeast from reproducing. It is used when sugar is added to acidic/tart wines to emphasize the fruit flavor. Without sorbate the sugar might produce a renewed fermentation and cause bottles to pop corks, or worse.

Clarification is used for stubborn wines that just don’t clear. Fruit wines are typically more in need of clarification because of the fruit pectin which causes a haze. I use it only as necessary since the sediment contains flavors as well. When used as recommended clarifies are said to not affect the taste, but if time does the same thing why use them unless necessary.

 

[rhodesengr]

Just a silly question I'm new at this, why do you have to add all this Xtra stuff sorbets, clarifier? I thought you just add sugar and yeast ?

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents. Definitely not an expert as this plum wine project was my first serious attempt at making wine in a very a long time. Back then I made mead and I literally just diluted honey to 24% sugar and added yeast. It came out ok. Typically would take 6 month to clear. I tried making wine with grape concentrates and that didn't come out so well. This was before internet but I had some books. I don't recall things like K-meta being mentioned.

I think making wine is part science and part art. Fruit wines are more complicated that mead. K-meta is pretty important because actual fruit has wild yeast and bacteria on the skin. Those need to be stopped. I did add tannin, yeast nutrient, acid blend, and pectic enzyme during the initial must phase. I was working from a recipe. Each has their own purpose.

See my other thread for all the help I received during the initial phase.
https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/ec-1118-slow.77856/