Fermentation vessels: Wide and low vs. Tall and thinner

[distancerunner]

We are fermenting twice as much as we did last year. We need to increase the number of fermentation containers. We currently have a couple of 44gal Brutes and a few smaller one's. All are gray. Bought the big one's over twenty years ago and they're still going strong. They work great. Fairly easy to clean. Stack and store well.



Some folks say the white Brutes are easier to clean because it's easier to see any stains.

There are large containers that are wide and low. They are more expensive than the Brutes.


What is the advantage, if any, to using the low, wide container? Or disadvantages?

 

[VinesnBines]

The short, wide will give you a thinner cap and more pomace to liquid ratio so a better extraction. However, how much more and is it worth the increased cost? Could an extra punch down a day achieve the same results?

You may have to experiment with both and post the results.

 

[sour_grapes]

The short, wide will give you a thinner cap and more pomace to liquid ratio so a better extraction. However, how much more and is it worth the increased cost? Could an extra punch down a day achieve the same results?

You may have to experiment with both and post the results.

Why would the geometry change the pomace-to-liquid ratio?

 

[VinesnBines]

Well surface to liquid, perhaps. Anyway a thinner cap.

 

[Ohio Bob]

I think more pomace will be in liquid, not that the volume of pomace or liquid changes.

 

[VinesnBines]

Correct. More skins in contact with the wine.

 

[Ted Brumleve]

I design distillery equipment. Rule of thumb for fermenters is equal diameter to height.

 

[distancerunner]

I design distillery equipment. Rule of thumb for fermenters is equal diameter to height.

What is the reasoning behind this rule of thumb?

 

[Ted Brumleve]

What is the reasoning behind this rule of thumb?

For commercial equipment, makes heat transfer more straight forward, and agitation. For home use, not a big deal. Both tall and thin, and short and fat, are frowned upon industrially.

 

[distancerunner]

It's about heat. That makes sense for distilling. Energy costs money.

Controlling temperature usually means keeping the must cooler. Except when you need to warm it up.

The idea that fermenter sizing is more about maceration, pre, during, and post fermentation is something to consider, too.

As always I could be wrong.

 

[VinesnBines]

I was going to remark on cost but I see shipping is too much. Ugh.

 

[winemaker81]

What is the advantage, if any, to using the low, wide container? Or disadvantages?

A wider fermenter requires a larger towel to cover it. I use 32 gallon Brutes and a typical oversized beach towel covers them fine.

If stirring or punching down daily (or more often), I doubt pomace-to-liquid contact significantly affects extraction.

For cleaning, I use a power washer on the Brute before and after use, and douse with One Step.

 

[distancerunner]

They are expensive. But they're not single use. If you think about it like a business expense (capital goods), use straight line depreciation over five years. Then divide that number into the bottles of wine produced. It takes the sting out of the investment. Or at least rationalizes it.

A wider fermenter requires a larger towel to cover it. I use 32 gallon Brutes and a typical oversized beach towel covers them fine.

If stirring or punching down daily (or more often), I doubt pomace-to-liquid contact significantly affects extraction.

For cleaning, I use a power washer on the Brute before and after use, and douse with One Step.

They're available with covers. But that ups the ante.

I punch down three to five times a day during the first phase because the yeast need O2. After that, three or four times a day to dryness.

If we extend maceration, a couple of times a day. Sometimes extended maceration is due to schedule conflicts.

Oxi-clean and sal soda (poor man's PBW) to clean.

 

[cenk57]

I'd stick with the Brutes if they're cheaper. Tried and true. They work perfectly for the home winemaker. I use the white ones because they're semitransparent and you can see the liquid level through the side. But I'm a tight wad too . I don't see any real advantage of using the short, wide containers for home winemaking anyway. On the commercial side, they tend to keep fermenter height and diameter nearly equal to assist in heat transfer.

 

[balatonwine]

What is the advantage, if any, to using the low, wide container? Or disadvantages?

First of all, I use the more expensive barrels, and there are many models, and some are quite tall. So "low and wide" alone is not really descriptive. Mine are tall and wide but that makes them also hold more. Mine go up to typically 300 L each. If you make more wine of one variety, then getting simply one tall and wide might actually be cost effective over getting many many Brute cans. Or not. I do not know. It would depend on your local conditions and how much wine you make.

Also to consider:

Brutes are not specifically classified and approved for wine making. The others are (which is why they are more expensive).

Brutes have certain food safety certificates, but they are complex and need puzzling together to see if they actually allow for the use of wine making. And there are some health concerns (see the Rubbermaid web site, as they are very open about different states having different regulations about use of these flexible plastic containers in food processing and needed warning labels -- so inform yourself).

Basically, what does that mean: If you want to use them for your personal wine making, live in California (for example) and want to ignore the carcinogenic warning label, then that is your choice. But you may not be able to sell your wine (legally). The chemicals in the plastic that adds the "flexibility" of the Brutes is the problem there. And thus can create another problem with the more expensive wine making barrels. They lack such toxic chemicals and so are harder. And I had one crack once, catastrophically during a crush. Yep, wine all over the floor. But again, to me, small price to pay to getting really the correct "safer" plastic. That was just one barrel. All my others have lasted me 15 years without issues. So not really a worry, but "it can happen".

In the end, up to you -- it is your wine (as long as you do not give or sell it to others without proper warning about how it was made).

Hope this helps.

 

[balatonwine]

I use 32 gallon Brutes and a typical oversized beach towel covers them fine.

Have you considered what type of microbiological community is living in that beach towel, no matter how times you wash it? Versus, say, a "proper" lid?

As a biologist, I can attest, your small belly button has a huge microbiotic community. That beach towel is of many orders of magnitude larger and that fuzziness is a great place for critters to grow.

If that is good or bad for the wine? Ah... there is the rub.....

EDIT: Personally if my bin does not have a lid, I use the cheapest thin cloth from the fabric store (it can be disposable after one use if one wishes) or if I want to spend more, no-seem netting. The cover at the primary is to let in O2 and keep our flies. Laying two boards across the top keeps it in place. It does not need to be complex or expensive if you do not want it to be.

 

[winemaker81]

Personally if my bin does not have a lid, I use the cheapest thin cloth from the fabric store (it can be disposable after one use if one wishes) or if I want to spend more, no-seem netting.

I'm far more confident that the towel I washed is cleaner than something coming from a store.

 

[balatonwine]

I'm far more confident that the towel I washed is cleaner than something coming from a store.

Your towel also came from a store....

I did not mention first cleaning and washing even a thin cloth before use in the wine making process as I thought that was obvious to any thinking person.

So groping to find any relevance to your above comment.

Edit: Maybe you did not understand, but a beach towel is fuzzy. As most towels are like that as they are designed to be absorbent. So they have a surface area much larger than their side by side measured area. And that gives a far, far larger area to hold moisture and to give bacteria places to grow. Contrary to a thin bit of cloth. That was my point.

 

[Rice_Guy]

We are fermenting twice as much as we did last year. We need to increase the number of fermentation containers. We currently have a couple of 44gal Brutes and a few smaller one's. All are gray. Bought the big one's over twenty years ago and they're still going strong. They work great. Fairly easy to clean. Stack and store well.
There are large containers that are wide and low. They are more expensive than the Brutes.
What is the advantage, if any, to using the low, wide container? Or disadvantages?

As a home fermenter/ small volume your primary doesn't make much difference. Chose food grade on availability and cost. A neat small volume is a polyethylene tote with matching lid, ,, but again to get practical this pushes you toward a pallet jack or fork lift, most home wine makers don't have one in the garage.

If you were commercial size stainless you would have to add air to the primary promote yeast growth with a large/ deep container. One could argue for a larger surface area but in the real world that would impact the required building size/ cost so it isn't practical. Pumping air is cheap. Large tanks also require glycol chill units, Remember the primary is exothermic.

 

[CDrew]

Basically, what does that mean: If you want to use them for your personal wine making, live in California (for example) and want to ignore the carcinogenic warning label, then that is your choice.

Being practical, above all else, Brutes work perfectly, don't cost much and are perfectly adequate. There is no "cancer label" on them from the state of california. I live in California, have bought Brutes here, and you are making this up.

If your volume goes up, lots of support for using macrobins in commercial wineries. These are super common in wine country. They are made of HDPE and Brutes are made of LLDPE, to me it's the same thing.