Confused about priming cider

[jamesjr]

Ok ive got a one gallon batch of cider fermenting at a sg of 1.069 and I plan on bottling it in beer bottles but how do I safely prime it? Is there any way of doing at certain sg reading or run it dry then backsweeten?

 

[richmke]

You will get better carbonation control by fermenting to dry and then priming.

 

[jamesjr]

Ok so go down to an sg of 1.000 or lower clear add say 2 tablespoons per gallon of sugar then bottle?

 

[jamesjr]

But how much priming sugar per gallon should I use? Ill be using brown sugar? Then how long do I let it sit in the bottle before drinking

 

[RegarRenill]

Why not do a google search for a priming calculator? Sry, I haven't carbed anything, yet, but I know I've seen people reference priming calculators. I *think* people have said to use 1oz sugar per gallon, fill your bottles and fill one PET soda bottle as a tester. Let sit at 70F until tester bottle is firm(like a full bottle of soda), then try one of your other bottles. Again, this is advise I've seen online, haven't carbed anything myself, so take it with a grain of salt...just wanted to give you *some* feedback, since no one else responded...

 

[jamesjr]

Thanks some feed back is better than no feed back and I dont realy understand the calculator s but im sure I can eventually figure it out but the whole bottle "bomb" is freaking me out lol. Since its just one gallon ill put it back into the plastic jug it came in that way I can control it a bit more

 

[BernardSmith]

When I prime my cider I add a hair less than 1 ounce of sugar /gallon (about 20 - 25 g ) . I will dissolve the sugar in a little water and boil that water for a few seconds in the microwave. I then pour it into the bottling bucket and rack the cider onto the sugar water. I stir it gently (though I am not sure you need to) and then I fill the bottles. It doesn't matter what size bottles you use since the priming sugar is equally distributed. Not sure how many volumes of CO2 that that quantity of sugar produces . I think it is about 2 but at any rate never had any mishap with beer bottles and caps. Never tried to see what happens with wine bottles and corks.

 

[jamesjr]

Awesome exactly what I was looking for ill let u kno how it turns out

 

[BernardSmith]

I am sure that it goes without saying but cider contains no proteins to speak of and so when carbonated it behaves more like champagne than beer. The lack of a head has nothing to do with too little priming sugar. There is simply no material to trap the gas. So it effervesces and sparkles rather than forms a lacy ruff.

 

[seth8530]

I would prime to no more than 3 volumes with normal beer bottles. Their are plenty of online calculators which will help you determine how much sugar you need to add.

Make sure the cider is dry and clear before you do this.

 

[heatherd]

Correct me if I am wrong....I have just made one batch of cider, but read volumes about it to educate myself.

From everything I have read about back-sweetening cider and priming, it led me to believe that you need to ferment to dry, then either add kmeta and sorbate to stop fermentation, then back-sweeten and prime. Otherwise you are just adding more fermentable sugar and continuing the fermentation process. Other options are pasteurizing or back-sweetening with something like splenda which won't ferment.

I read that back-sweetening without taking some step to stop fermentation can lead to bottle bombs.

The small amount for bottle priming is not a problem, though.

Heather

 

[jamesjr]

Im trying to let it clear now but I dont see it clearing anytime soon I tried a little bentonite but not much success also I think the co2 is keeping alot in suspension but degassing wouldn't make sence because I want extra co2 right? Im a little confused now. Also

If I ad meta it'd kill all the yeast wich wont let it keep fermenting to produce co2 and carbonate?
Correct me if im wrong but I may be over thinking

 

[richmke]

Correct me if I am wrong....then either add kmeta and sorbate to stop fermentation, then back-sweeten and prime.

I'm correcting you, but someone can correct me.

You need the yeast to ferment the priming sugar in order to convert it to CO2 to add fizz to your cider. If you kmeta/ksorbate, you keep the yeast from doing their stuff.

Basically, you get your choice of back-sweetening (kill yeast) OR fizz (keep yeast alive), but you can't get both (at least using sugar).

You can carbonate back-sweetened cider using a forced carbonation system.

In theory you can get sweet and carbonated cider, but you have to boost the alcohol level so that the yeast ferments some of the sugar, but dies before fermenting all of the sugar.

I read that back-sweetening without taking some step to stop fermentation can lead to bottle bombs.

That's why you ferment to dry first. Then you can control the amount of in-bottle fermentation.

 

[BernardSmith]

I'm sure others can explain this a mite better than I can but you cannot at one and the same time effectively backsweeten and prime. Here's why: When you prime you need the yeast to be active. You want the sugar you have added to carbonate the wine (or cider or mead) to be transformed to CO2 (and alcohol). You may be far less interested in the additional alcohol - it will only be a very small amount. You ARE totally interested in the CO2 that the yeast excretes when it produces alcohol.
BUT
When you backsweeten you don't want the yeast touching the sugar you have added. You want ALL the sugar you have added to remain in solution to sweeten the cider (or mead or wine). If the yeast can ferment it then it will not be as sweet as you want the drink to be and you only added that additional sugar for its sweeteness.

That said, there ARE still at least three ways to both sweeten and prime but they involve different processes.
One way might be (and I am not recommending this) to add non fermentable sugar to sweeten the cider and fermentable sugar to prime. Non fermentable sugars often spoil the taste of the cider etc.

A second way to both prime and backsweeten is to stabilize the cider and prevent the yeast from doing its job, then you add fermentable sugars (could be table sugar, more apple juice, honey, agave, maple syrup etc etc). To prime you force carbonate like many brewers do by artificially pumping CO2 into the liquid..This way requires CO2 canisters and ways of controlling the amount of CO2 you add. (you could try a Soda Stream CO2 dispenser but I don't know how well they work with liquids other than water.

A third (and eminently dangerous process - IMO ) is to add sugar to your cider (with yeast still very active) and to then pasteurize the bottles at some stage when there is still enough sugar to sweeten and enough lost sugar to have primed the bottles - but IMO, heating gas filled bottles is asking for trouble and heat in any event will help destroy volatile molecules that offer flavor and aroma.. You also have to guestimate the point at which you want to kill the yeast. Too soon and your cider is flat. Too late and you have bottle bombs.

These are the options... There may be other options but I am unfamiliar with what they may be...

 

[richmke]

Here is another option....

With Champagne, you prime, and then:

Invert the bottle (let sediment drop to the neck)
freeze the neck
Uncork the bottle and remove the frozen plug with the sediment
re-cork the bottle (with the fizz still inside).​

Using that idea:

Prime the bottle, and leave some space
after the bottle has fizzed
uncork the bottle
add simple syrup mixture (back-sweeten), with k-meta and k-sorbate dissolved in the syrup
recork the bottle​

 

[BernardSmith]

so you prime first, then disgorge and quickly stabilize and add sweetener? I would be concerned that the yeast that would be active enough to prime the bottle will be too active and too large a colony to be effectively stabilized to enable you to sweeten the cider (or wine). I thought when champagne riddlers riddled they never sweetened their wine (But I may be very wrong about that).

 

[jamesjr]

Excellent knowledge people!
What I plan to do is is run the sg down to 1.000 or below and since it was only one gallon batch if I make a small mistake I can just tweak it next time im going to backsweeten with a non fermentable then prime with the suggested amount that bernardsmith said. And I think it'll turn out fine for my first time carbing anything. If not then im sure ive drank worse but im wanting to eventually perfect my own recipe for every winter.

Bernard when u say 20-25 grams whats optimum in your opinion? And will a simple food grade digital scale safely measure that?

 

[petey_c]

BernardSmith, I didn't know that about non fermentable sugars and the taste of ciders. I'd used a pound of lactose to back sweeten a batch of double chocolate stout. I'd used 8 oz. unsweetened baker's chocolate (man, talk about bitter....) so I needed to level that out a bit. Could he try adding lactose to regular cider and see how that affects the taste, or do you think it would be just a waste of time and money?

 

[seth8530]

I am not Mr. Smith, but when adding unfermentable sugars to ensure sweetness and carbonatoin you need to use a sugar source that agrees with the flavor profile that you are after. Ie, check out a graff, it is a beer cider, so it has unfermentable sugars and carbonation.

Or, if you are feeling hands on you can check out my interesting ( not a synonym nor antonym for good) results with my funk mead where we used crystal malt to create a sugar syrup for the funk mead.

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f51/brett-lambic-sour-mead-need-input-45470/

 

[heatherd]

What I did is this, for sweet plus carbonated:
-Ferment to dry
-back sweeten with liquid sugar
-bottle
-Add carbonation drops to each bottle
-Wait 4-5 days for desired carbonation level, testing each day
-pasteurize by putting bottles in a 160 degree pot of water for 10 minutes

Heather