Commercial (malolactic conversion) vs Kit wine

[kuziwk]

Hi Guys,

im just curious on what your opinions are when comparing kit wines to commercial wines. From what i understand and in my experience i have not come across a kit that allows for malolactic fermentation/conversion as they are generally PH balanced already. In spite of being PH balanced were still comparing lactic acid to malic acid, to my understanding lactic acid is going to impart a more full and well rounded flavor. Would this by itself not limit to how kit wines will taste? Its my understanding that most commercial wineries induce this conversion at some point during the process. I suppose we can do our own malolactic conversion, but i thought the general consensus is when we tweak our kits this conversion is not really something that we should tweak since the kits are already PH balanced as mention and will likely ruin the kit wine.

 

[Johnd]

Hi Guys,

im just curious on what your opinions are when comparing kit wines to commercial wines. From what i understand and in my experience i have not come across a kit that allows for malolactic fermentation/conversion as they are generally PH balanced already. In spite of being PH balanced were still comparing lactic acid to malic acid, to my understanding lactic acid is going to impart a more full and well rounded flavor. Would this by itself not limit to how kit wines will taste? Its my understanding that most commercial wineries induce this conversion at some point during the process. I suppose we can do our own malolactic conversion, but i thought the general consensus is when we tweak our kits this conversion is not really something that we should tweak since the kits are already PH balanced as mention and will likely ruin the kit wine.

Your comments about the "balanced pH" of the kit wines I believe to be true, the manufacturers make these modifications to keep the kit hobbyist from having to manage the pH of their wines, thus, making them easier to produce. Malic acid, by its nature, is a much sharper and stronger acid than lactic acid, malic acid gives apples their sharp taste, while lactic gives milk its smooth taste. Converting malic to lactic in our grape wines will certainly smooth out the finished product. As we've heard over the years, kit manufacturers use malic acid to adjust the pH of the kit wines, this acid is not natural, and thus will be unaffected by a ML conversion, so it won't do in a kit wine what it does in a grape wine, in terms of removing all of the malic acid, and may leave the wine unbalanced from a pH standpoint.

 

[kuziwk]

Your comments about the "balanced pH" of the kit wines I believe to be true, the manufacturers make these modifications to keep the kit hobbyist from having to manage the pH of their wines, thus, making them easier to produce. Malic acid, by its nature, is a much sharper and stronger acid than lactic acid, malic acid gives apples their sharp taste, while lactic gives milk its smooth taste. Converting malic to lactic in our grape wines will certainly smooth out the finished product. As we've heard over the years, kit manufacturers use malic acid to adjust the pH of the kit wines, this acid is not natural, and thus will be unaffected by a ML conversion, so it won't do in a kit wine what it does in a grape wine, in terms of removing all of the malic acid, and may leave the wine unbalanced from a pH standpoint.

yes that would make sense, so in general can we deduce that kit wines will mostly taste sharper than most commercial wines which have undergone malolactic conversion since their end result would be that most of the PH in the wine will be from lactic acid?

 

[Johnd]

yes that would make sense, so in general can we deduce that kit wines will mostly taste sharper than most commercial wines which have undergone malolactic conversion since their end result would be that most of the PH in the wine will be from lactic acid?

I would certainly not make that blanket statement, but say instead that they would taste sharper than they would if they had their malic acid removed and replaced with lactic acid. Fact is, lots of kit wines are quite smooth with the combination of acids provided by the manufacturers of the kits, especially with time and some barrel aging. While still present, acids tend to soften over time, that's why a lot of us let our wines hang around for a while and age(whether bulk or bottle) before drinking them, and the same is true of grape wines. Lactic acid is a weak acid, but tartaric is the most plentiful in grape juice, therefore I would deduce that the vast majority of the resulting wine pH is a result of the tartaric acid.

 

[ibglowin]

The 84th time will be the charm...........

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/topping-up.54783/#post-623732

 

[Johnd]

The 84th time will be the charm...........

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/topping-up.54783/#post-623732

You only hope it will be the charm!!! LOL!! One of the topics that never seems to be satisfied. Put it up there with degassing and what kind of covering to put on your fermenter........................

 

[Ajmassa]

Definitely read that link ibglowin just posted!
I think it’s natural for any kit winemaker who progresses into grape and juice wine to question this.
*Hypothetically, even if you WERE to successfully remove all the malic from a kit you’d basically be throwing darts to adjust acid after that since the ratio of acids is much different from the start. (*I think*)
And instead of adjusting tartaric, proper levels and by taste in grape wine— would be guessing what level and what acids needed —probably ruin it without a superlab and a degree in chemistry.
But isn’t this a selling point on kits sorta kinda? That The Lab work is done for ya. Good kits can really come around in a big way after decent aging I’m finding out (18+ mos. for many)

 

[kuziwk]

Definitely read that link ibglowin just posted!
I think it’s natural for any kit winemaker who progresses into grape and juice wine to question this.
*Hypothetically, even if you WERE to successfully remove all the malic from a kit you’d basically be throwing darts to adjust acid after that since the ratio of acids is much different from the start. (*I think*)
And instead of adjusting tartaric, proper levels and by taste in grape wine— would be guessing what level and what acids needed —probably ruin it without a superlab and a degree in chemistry.
But isn’t this a selling point on kits sorta kinda? That The Lab work is done for ya. Good kits can really come around in a big way after decent aging I’m finding out (18+ mos. for many)

im waiting for my celler craft to finish and than need to age it so i can compare. We get a alot of decent wine in canada from the okanagon, alcohol in canada is just heavily taxed which is an issue. My plan was to use my wife for blind taste testing. On a side note i just got my argentia reserve amarone kit in from costco, it had excellent reviews and having tried a few of costcos cheaper kits for $50 a kit i was quite surprised to have a drinkable wine for not much more than a dollar. Generally speaking alot of the cheaper commercial bottles ive had that are under $10 have a metal taste where the cheap costco kits did not. Excited to do some blind testing when its all said and done.

 

[sour_grapes]

My plan was to use my wife for blind taste testing. .... Excited to do some blind testing when its all said and done.

I would really like to do more blind tasting than I do. I think there is a way for everyone in a group to do the tasting blind. In a separate room, one person puts the wine bottles in paper bags, then leaves the room. A second person enters the room and writes "A," "B," "C," etc. on the bags, and scrambles them. The first person (or yet a 3rd person) enters the room and pours glasses of "A," "B," "C," etc. (This person could also relabel all the bagged bottles "1," "2," etc., in random order, if it helps the 2nd person, but not strictly necessary.) Then all parties taste and make notes on "A," "B," "C," etc., before the bags are removed.

Of course, it is good to have a lot of wines for such an exercise, which means a lot of bottles, which ideally means lots of people!

 

[user 36973]

kit manufacturers use malic acid to adjust the pH of the kit wines, this acid is not natural, and thus will be unaffected by a ML conversion

This is a good point that the MLF bacteria can only metabolize L-malic and any addition of synthetic malic acid will contain D-malic as well as L-malic.

Plus, if the kit wine producer is using significant citric acid you may get a butter bomb after MLF.