RJ Spagnols Change Yeast? RC212 vs EC1118

[Andy419]

Hi Everyone,

Yesterday I started an RJS Cellar Classic Cab/Merlot kit. (this is my 2nd kit ever, 4th batch ever (2 SP batches)). I pitched the yeast (Lalvin EC-1118) last night at 8:30 pm when the must was at 78º.

I know it is very early yet, but there is absolutely NO activity. (On my other attemps I saw a little activity pretty early on (within a few hrs)). I'm afraid that the yeast may be dead -- the kit is dated 9/28/09, so I am afraid it may have been stored improperly with all the temperature changes since then (especially with the brutal heat we've had in the Northeast) -- maybe?

So here is my question: IF I need to try some new yeast (I'm going to give this at least until tomorrow - about 48hrs), can I switch to RC212, which seems to be better for "Aged Reds"? I know you are always supposed to follow instruction and I assume the EC1118 is in the kit for a reason, but isn't RC212 a better choice?

Thanks,

Andy

 

[cpfan]

I believe that RJS uses EC-1118 in all of their kits. So yes, it's there for a reason...it's the only one they use.

Certainly switching to RC-212 is a valid choice, and I know that other winemakers have made that switch (although not necessarily with this kit).

The EC-1118 will probably start up, just give it some time. BTW, judge fermentation by sg results, not your eyes. IE, got any sg readings?

Steve

 

[Andy419]

SG Started out normal -- 1.088. I'll give another check before making any decisions.

THANKS, as always, for your input and advice!

 

[Tom]

I usr RC212 on my Chilean juice Cab/Merlot

 

[xanxer82]

I pitched EC -1118 and had bubbles within two hours. Give your must a good stir.
The heat out here in the northeast has been triple digits and brutal. Contact the manufacturer or retailer and they will send out new yeast right away.

 

[Wade E]

stick you ear in there and listen for a soda can sizzling sound as thats the first sign of fermentation.

 

[Andy419]

Thanks Everyone,

Last night I put the lid on tightly and added the airlock -- eventually I did get some bubbles, but very few. This morning, 36 hrs post-pitch, I checked SG and it was 1.086 -- down a little, but also could be statistical error. I think I'll go get some yeast today and have it ready for later tonight. I'm starting to worry about oxidation.

Thanks again,

Andy

P.S. Tom: I know where you live (but not in a creepy, stalking kind of way). I grew up in Edgewater Park (Cottage Ave, on the river side of where Warren St/Beverly Road goes under the railroad tracks). I come back to visit a few times a year -- I hope to time a visit with one of your wine club meetings some day!

 

[Andy419]

One more question...

And 1 more question: If I need to pitch more yeast, should I make a starter or just sprinkle it on top of the must? I would lean toward a starter with just a little sugar so as to not mess with the SG too much.

??

 

[GHowe]

Andy, how'd you make out with this? On another thread I asked the same question about my Grand Cru Pinot Noir. I ditched their EC1118 for the RC 212 and have had great results so far. The EC1118 seems to be rather conservative and neutral with a wide temp range, so I assume that is why they use that yeast by default. But it really does look like the RC 212 is a better choice for these reds. I bought a fresh pack at a local store and just sprinkled on top with great results so far.

Greg

 

[Lurker]

Andy, what is that strange stuff on your ear?

 

[Andy419]

Greg -- the short answer is: I'm not sure yet. This is only my second batch so I'm not sure what is normal and what is an issue. Anyway ...

I did add some RC212 (made a small starter with 1 cup H2O, 1 tsp sugar) and added it on Day3 as the 1118 was just not active enough in my opinion. All I was getting was some fizz, not really any big bubbles or foam. Along with the fizz, I thought I could smell some sulphur so I figured the yeast was struggling (it was July, maybe too hot, or maybe just old yeast??). The 212 didn't really take off either, but I did get down to an SG of below 1.000 on day 6 so I figured everything was OK. (I did stir with a copper wire on Day 5 (to try to kill the sulphur smell) and added some energizer and nutrient to try to help the yeast).

When I racked to secondary (KMeta/Sorbate/Degas), the must still tasted a little "burnt rubbery", so I did some more copper wire treatment. After about 2 more weeks I racked again to get rid of most of the sediment. (splashed and added some more KMeta and Sorbate) to keep stable. The sample at that time, was better, but my wife (who has a better nose than I do) could still smell some sulphur. The next day I did some more copper wire treatment -- it has been sitting (aging?) since then.

Like I said to start -- I'm not sure how this will all turn out -- I hope that with aging the sulphur smell will dissipate. I think I will use RC212, purchased from my HBS, and make a starter, from the start next time. I am suddenly wary of the yeast that comes with the kits. I've only done 2 batches, but it seems that the kit yeast struggled both times. (my first kit really smells like sulphur, but that's a whole other story ..... ) (also 3 batches of Skeeter Pee fermented like crazy, and that's supposed to be hard to get going)

 

[bluecorporal]

Change yeast

I had trouble with EC1118 dated 2009, from another kit manufacturer. I bought another packet and pitched it in after 2 days of inactivity.
Fermentation started right away and the wine (Bergamais) turned out fine.

 

[grapeman]

I wish I had read this sooner but I just saw it today. RC-212 is a heavy feeder of nitrogen so generally an extra boost of yeast nuttrient is called for with it's use. That will prevent a stinky fermentation. As fermentation begins, if you begin to detect the smell, add a bit more nutrient. i recently had one of my Marquette batches start to develop a bit of stink, so in went another 2 tablespoons of DAP nutrient. The smell went away within hours and now is the best smelling batch I have ever made.

 

[Wade E]

Red Star Montrachet is also as stated above.

 

[robie]

Andy,
Give us an update. How's the sulfur smell these days? Hope it is gone. I assume you have an air lock on top of that carboy.

What was your final SG reading? Is it below 1.000? I wonder if it might have quit on you a little early.

I had a similar thing happen to a fermentation; I used a 1/4 inch copper pipe to splash rack; it did the job. I really was worried, since I paid $140 for that kit!!!

 

[GHowe]

Grapeman (is that some sort of superhero name? "Man, my fermentation is stuck...what am I gonna do? Wait! Here comes GRAPEMAN [cue the music]), when you say "stinky" do you mean just sulphur smell, or could it be a sickly sweet smell too? My RC212 was not given any nutrient and though it went just fine, but took longer than I thought, the first week had such a nauseatingly sweet fruity yeasty smell. This was my first fermentation ever so is this just normal smell and I should get used to it?

Andy, looking forward to your update on how it went!

Greg

 

[Andy419]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for all of the feedback and interest! I have been "offline" for a while due to a family issue and being really busy at work. Anyway ....

I did give the wine a pretty good sniff last night and it did smell pretty good. Maybe a touch of sulphur, but not much if any. I didn't taste it - -I will try some soon and let you know. Should I check this with an SO2 test kit? If so, can someone give me some guidance on what is a good level? I've seen around 30 ppm?

Grapeman -- Thanks so much -- I also wish you had read this sooner I also have a batch of Pinot Noir that I used RC212 (made starter then pitched) on which also developed the same issue -- now I know why. The batch is done fermenting, and is the clearing stage now. I would guess splash racking / copper wire will work on this also?

Robie, yes to the airlock and SG was down to 0.99, so I think I was OK there. Actually, fermentation on both of these batches progressed right on schedule, maybe even a little bit ahead of schedule. It made no sense to me how I was getting the "stinky yeast is struggling smell" when fermenattion was progressing quite nicely.


Thanks Again everyone, now I know to add more nutrient with RC212!!!

 

[robie]

Robie -- yes to the airlock, SG was down to 0.990 so I think I was OK there.

Great to hear the smell is almost gone. Wait until you get some sediment in the bottom of your carboy, splash rack it one more time; that should take care of the tiny sulfur smell, which you have left.

Be sure and keep that air lock in place until all bad smell is gone and the wine is fully degassed.

 

[Andy419]

And also ... Grapeman(?) or anyone else ...

I would like to keep using RC212 as it seems to be a very good choice (as per Tom's yeast chart). What is a good amount of nutrient for a typical 6 gallon batch? Are there any drawbacks or cautions I shoudl know of?

Thanks

 

[robie]

And also ... Grapeman(?) or anyone else ...

I would like to keep using RC212 as it seems to be a very good choice (as per Tom's yeast chart). What is a good amount of nutrient for a typical 6 gallon batch? Are there any drawbacks or cautions I shoudl know of?

Thanks

I always make a yeast starter.
I use Go Ferm as a part of the starter and add Fermaid K about halfway through fermentaton. The actual amount of each and when to add Fermaid K is written on the instructions that come with the product; sorry I don't have that with me presently. I believe you add Fermaid K when the brix is half of what it was at start, but don't quote me on this.
Check with the company that produces your RC212, their website should give you more info.

Andy,
Also consider that one thing, which caused things to start off slowly and to turn SOUTH, "might" have been that you added one strong yeast on top of another strong yeast. Even though you believed the Ec118 was dead, maybe it wasn't. Both yeasts cannot share the load; one yeast must kill the other before it can fully ferment the wine. They can't coexist.

This means there was likely a struggle going on between them, just to see which would win. This process likely left the winner weak and its numbers quite low. This is one possibility that could have contributed to the struggle, which allowed the sulfur problem.

Can't prove this, but from what I have read, it sounds likely to me.