That's early! We haven't had a freeze since mid February, so I'm expecting bud break soon also. Hopefully it won't be too crazy of a summer with all the rain we got, but that's just hopeful thinking
Zinfandel grapes -> wine! A new member's introduction via a 75L of red deliciousness.
- Thread starter tjmeyer
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Data 3/19/24
Temperature
RP-15:
74.2°F and 68°F ambient. (23.4°/20°C)
BM 4x4:
75.3°F and 68°F ambient. (24.1°/20°C)
Brix
RP-15:
Measured at ~16°Brix.
BM 4x4:
Measured at slightly higher than 16° so I'm going to estimate 16.5°Brix.
SG
As fermentation continues, Brix can be inaccurate, so I find occasional SG readings helpful even through they're a lot more effort.
RP-15:
Significantly more foamy, so was hard to read. Image was taken after about 5 minutes of settling. With the foam still in the way, I'm going to estimate 1.052.
BM 4x4:
Foam settled right away, has a more creamy texture. Also going to take that read to be 1.052.
Additions
I added 8g of FermFed to the RP-15 and 12g of Fermaid K to the BM 4X4 mix. Used a simple kitchen food scale, a small bowl, and a protein shaker bottle. Added just enough well water to allow the power to rehydrate (doesn't take much at all) and shake to break up clumps. The following are the images of the process in order:
Look, Feel, and Taste
Looks are very healthy across both. No negative comments or visible problems.
Feel is vastly different. The BM 4X4 forms incredibly dense, intense foam with bubbles so tiny you can't really see them individually. It's so dense and thick that I've confused it with the surface of the wine more than once, but it is just foam, not a solid forming. I've seen similar foam on great wines before, so I'm not at all worried. It is in stark contrast to the more common loose and aggressive bubbles of the RP-15. It forms large bubbles and is loud when agitated.
Taste is also very different already--neither of them taste like wine yet, however. The RP-15 has a pleasant woody tang. The BM 4X4 has a surprisingly long aftertaste that isn't present in the RP-15. I don't detect any of off flavors or smells in either.
Temperature
RP-15:
74.2°F and 68°F ambient. (23.4°/20°C)
BM 4x4:
75.3°F and 68°F ambient. (24.1°/20°C)
Brix
RP-15:
Measured at ~16°Brix.
BM 4x4:
Measured at slightly higher than 16° so I'm going to estimate 16.5°Brix.
SG
As fermentation continues, Brix can be inaccurate, so I find occasional SG readings helpful even through they're a lot more effort.
RP-15:
Significantly more foamy, so was hard to read. Image was taken after about 5 minutes of settling. With the foam still in the way, I'm going to estimate 1.052.
BM 4x4:
Foam settled right away, has a more creamy texture. Also going to take that read to be 1.052.
Additions
I added 8g of FermFed to the RP-15 and 12g of Fermaid K to the BM 4X4 mix. Used a simple kitchen food scale, a small bowl, and a protein shaker bottle. Added just enough well water to allow the power to rehydrate (doesn't take much at all) and shake to break up clumps. The following are the images of the process in order:
Look, Feel, and Taste
Looks are very healthy across both. No negative comments or visible problems.
Feel is vastly different. The BM 4X4 forms incredibly dense, intense foam with bubbles so tiny you can't really see them individually. It's so dense and thick that I've confused it with the surface of the wine more than once, but it is just foam, not a solid forming. I've seen similar foam on great wines before, so I'm not at all worried. It is in stark contrast to the more common loose and aggressive bubbles of the RP-15. It forms large bubbles and is loud when agitated.
Taste is also very different already--neither of them taste like wine yet, however. The RP-15 has a pleasant woody tang. The BM 4X4 has a surprisingly long aftertaste that isn't present in the RP-15. I don't detect any of off flavors or smells in either.
I just realized you must be in a warmer area than me, Templeton is near Paso Robles right? If you're ever curious about our weather, here's the vineyard's live weather station address: https://tempestwx.com/station/51653/
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Data 3/20/2024
Punching cap every 3-4 hours except during the night, depending on my schedule. I'm averaging 4 punch downs per day.
Temperature
As of 22:49 last night (thermometer decided to quit), we read a healthy 25.1°C/77.2°F.
Brix
BM 4x4: right around 11.5° Brix
RP-15: Appears slightly higher at around 12° Brix
SG
Specific gravity is a much more reliable reading during fermentation, as can be illustrated by the inconsistencies between SG and Brix values of these ferments. This disparity will grow wider as the ferment nears completion.
BM 4x4 appears to be just over 1.030. Going to estimate 1.031.
RP-15 appears to be just over 1.022 1.024, due to the more aggressive RP-15 foam and meniscus, I will estimate it to be around 1.024 1.025. edit: read that wrong in person, adjusted after reviewing photo.
Look/Feel/Taste
Both batches continue to have a very healthy ferment. I do not taste any undesirable flavors, sourness developing, bitterness, or other off notes. Sweetness is rapidly decreasing and being replaced by a very round red wine in both cases.
The texture between the two batches remains consistent with previous days.
I do not see any mold or other unexpected solids. The yeast has thorough control of this wine.
Hope everyone's week is going well!
Punching cap every 3-4 hours except during the night, depending on my schedule. I'm averaging 4 punch downs per day.
Temperature
As of 22:49 last night (thermometer decided to quit), we read a healthy 25.1°C/77.2°F.
Brix
BM 4x4: right around 11.5° Brix
RP-15: Appears slightly higher at around 12° Brix
SG
Specific gravity is a much more reliable reading during fermentation, as can be illustrated by the inconsistencies between SG and Brix values of these ferments. This disparity will grow wider as the ferment nears completion.
BM 4x4 appears to be just over 1.030. Going to estimate 1.031.
Look/Feel/Taste
Both batches continue to have a very healthy ferment. I do not taste any undesirable flavors, sourness developing, bitterness, or other off notes. Sweetness is rapidly decreasing and being replaced by a very round red wine in both cases.
The texture between the two batches remains consistent with previous days.
I do not see any mold or other unexpected solids. The yeast has thorough control of this wine.
Hope everyone's week is going well!
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Data 3/21/2024
Temperature
Hovering around 25.5°C/78°F
Brix
BM 4x4 / AMH: estimate around 10°Brix
RP-15: Estimate around 9.5°Brix.
SG
BM 4x4 / AMH: my best read on this is about 1.014, maybe just a touch higher. Thoughts? (got a few solids, sry)
RP-15: juuuuust over 1.012, gonna say this is 1.013.
Look/Feel/Taste
Now that much of the sugar is gone, I can tell a distinct difference. The RP-15 is fruitier (not to be confused with sweet) and lighter taste. The BM4x4/AMH mix has a, for lack of a better way to describe it, back of the tongue woody sensation that is quite nice and very little fruit. Of course all of this will change drastically over time and through pressing/clarification/aging.
Temperature
Hovering around 25.5°C/78°F
Brix
BM 4x4 / AMH: estimate around 10°Brix
SG
BM 4x4 / AMH: my best read on this is about 1.014, maybe just a touch higher. Thoughts? (got a few solids, sry)
Look/Feel/Taste
Now that much of the sugar is gone, I can tell a distinct difference. The RP-15 is fruitier (not to be confused with sweet) and lighter taste. The BM4x4/AMH mix has a, for lack of a better way to describe it, back of the tongue woody sensation that is quite nice and very little fruit. Of course all of this will change drastically over time and through pressing/clarification/aging.
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Progressing nicely!
And yes, Templeton is the town just to the south of Paso. Home to the “famous” Templeton gap which is a space in the coastal mountains between the Paso region and the coast. This gap allows for the cool ocean breezes in the summer time which cause our large diurnal shift.
And yes, Templeton is the town just to the south of Paso. Home to the “famous” Templeton gap which is a space in the coastal mountains between the Paso region and the coast. This gap allows for the cool ocean breezes in the summer time which cause our large diurnal shift.
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Decisions, decisions!
As the bulk of fermentation is wrapping up (not done, yet), do we want to press, or leave it on the solids longer, as long as possible? So far the taste-able tannin and color quality is good.
Also important to notice that the "foaminess" has disappeared from both. This is also a symptom of fermentation dying off.
As the bulk of fermentation is wrapping up (not done, yet), do we want to press, or leave it on the solids longer, as long as possible? So far the taste-able tannin and color quality is good.
Also important to notice that the "foaminess" has disappeared from both. This is also a symptom of fermentation dying off.
I don’t usually press this early. As long as it is descending steadily, I don’t like to mess with progress.
Only exception where I pressed “early” was the problem child when the Brix started bouncing back up during the day and down at night. We were stuck with that wine at 8ish at that point.
Only exception where I pressed “early” was the problem child when the Brix started bouncing back up during the day and down at night. We were stuck with that wine at 8ish at that point.
Normally I press after the SG is below 1.000, and often not until I'm sure fermentation has completed. I've pressed earlier, and the resulting wine is good, but lighter than I generally prefer.
I have done the short EM with kits -- the FWK method is to ferment to between 1.020 and 1.010, do a final punchdown on the skin packs, then seal the fermenter until Day 14. At that point, unseal the fermenter and rack. Fermentation is fully completed, gross lees should have dropped, and there was a short EM which extracts more tannin.
For my grape batches, which don't fit in 7.9 gallon fermenters, I've gone a few days after fermentation was complete. I'm not comfortable doing a longer EM.
Regarding pressing, how hard will the pressing be?
I use a #40 basket press, and do various things. One tactic is to press until the cranking starts to get stiff. The wine to that point is segregated, and I press the remainder very hard. This last wine is harsher yet more full bodied, and may be used for barrel topup.
I have done the short EM with kits -- the FWK method is to ferment to between 1.020 and 1.010, do a final punchdown on the skin packs, then seal the fermenter until Day 14. At that point, unseal the fermenter and rack. Fermentation is fully completed, gross lees should have dropped, and there was a short EM which extracts more tannin.
For my grape batches, which don't fit in 7.9 gallon fermenters, I've gone a few days after fermentation was complete. I'm not comfortable doing a longer EM.
Regarding pressing, how hard will the pressing be?
I use a #40 basket press, and do various things. One tactic is to press until the cranking starts to get stiff. The wine to that point is segregated, and I press the remainder very hard. This last wine is harsher yet more full bodied, and may be used for barrel topup.
Very easy, I use a vacuum press on the fermenter. No need to transfer first or anything. Can be done in minutes.
I've never done this before. Should we try it?
I have no experience with this, so pictures and a description as it happens will be great!
Sure. It has worked fine when I've done it.
Oh, did you mean force? I typically stop at 15psi to avoid hard pressing, but that's just my thing.
Just a few questions for the forum at large! We have a few important decisions to make that I think should be done soon, even if they don't happen soon. This way we have more time to get as many opinions/thoughts/ideas as we can. I have my own personal thoughts, but this is just my vote and I'm happy to do what the consensus is.
Pressing force. Does anyone have an opinion or thought on this? Mine is typically 15psi because I don't like to rupture seeds if I can help it, but I'll try anything.
Clarify. Fining agents, filtering
Aging method--with the spirit of "Homebrew" in mind (I.e. I'm not going to blend it with a sold wine, or put this in a jeroboam, etc). We can barrel age, tank age, or bottle age. My personal thought is bottle age if we don't clarify with time only. I personally find the best results from this for small batches and think the finings can often be worth it to avoid aging accidents in very small batches.
Looking forward to it!
Pressing force. Does anyone have an opinion or thought on this? Mine is typically 15psi because I don't like to rupture seeds if I can help it, but I'll try anything.
Clarify. Fining agents, filtering
Aging method--with the spirit of "Homebrew" in mind (I.e. I'm not going to blend it with a sold wine, or put this in a jeroboam, etc). We can barrel age, tank age, or bottle age. My personal thought is bottle age if we don't clarify with time only. I personally find the best results from this for small batches and think the finings can often be worth it to avoid aging accidents in very small batches.
Looking forward to it!
I honestly have no idea what 15 psi means in terms of pressing. As I mentioned previously, I've segregated the wine from an initial pressing, then pressed the heck out of the remainder. I don't know enough at this point to have an opinion on it.
Regarding fining agents, I tend to avoid most unless necessary. If we're bulk aging for a year, then there probably isn't a need.
A test I conducted last year proved that kieselsol & chitosan reduce the aroma, and introduce a slight bitterness. Bentonite strips color. If we had excessive tannin, egg whites are supposed to be best. I can't recall using other fining agents.
I haven't filtered a wine in over 30 years, and don't see a pressing need. [pun intended]
Barrel aging is my choice for heavy reds. I tend to top with my wines, but will use whatever is necessary to ensure the barrel or carboy is topped up.
Regarding fining agents, I tend to avoid most unless necessary. If we're bulk aging for a year, then there probably isn't a need.
A test I conducted last year proved that kieselsol & chitosan reduce the aroma, and introduce a slight bitterness. Bentonite strips color. If we had excessive tannin, egg whites are supposed to be best. I can't recall using other fining agents.
I haven't filtered a wine in over 30 years, and don't see a pressing need. [pun intended]
Barrel aging is my choice for heavy reds. I tend to top with my wines, but will use whatever is necessary to ensure the barrel or carboy is topped up.
Don't know about pressing force with your setup. Most home winemakers dont have that so you likely won't find an opinion. If that is what works for you in the past, then do what you think is best.
As far as aging goes, you'll probably find most around here prefer to bulk age in carboys for at least 6 months. The general consensus being that it helps eliminate potential for variation in the bottles if it is allowed to age for a while before bottling.
You will probably also find that most people here do not use barrels but the ones that do use them prefer them over non-barreled wine.
My preference is 3 to 6 months in carboys to help drop fines, then age in the barrel until ready and then back to the carboy for a few months to make final tweaks and get one more filter rack in before bottling. My barrel experience is very limited though. I assume you have large 50 gallon barrels and I have no experience with these. I'll let someone else chime in on their thoughts but I believe that most of the regulars on this forum would not bottle in less than 3 months from pressing.
Edit: I also would not use fining agents unless necessary. I'd sooner just filter the wine at bottling or as Bryan said, just allow time to naturally drop sediment. If your in a hurry to bottle this, you're on your own on steps to take.
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Sounds like carboy aging or barrel aging is the consensus! I'm in no rush at all.
I don't think barrel aging under 30 gallons is ideal (this batch will probably be around 13 gallons pressed) but we should be ok with a 15 gallon and a top up wine, both I can acquire.
Carboy aging is very home brew, I should have 2x 6 gallons around somewhere, I just don't like glass much. I could also just age in stainless and call it a carboy since stainless is similar to glass in the resulting wine.
Consensus says no fining agents, I think that's decided, then!
Thanks for indulging me in my attempt to be thorough and cover everything that a new winemaker might be thinking/deciding when making a red from grapes. If anyone can think of other questions to ask, even if you know what the "obvious" answer may be, please do so for everyone else that may review this thread!
I don't think barrel aging under 30 gallons is ideal (this batch will probably be around 13 gallons pressed) but we should be ok with a 15 gallon and a top up wine, both I can acquire.
Carboy aging is very home brew, I should have 2x 6 gallons around somewhere, I just don't like glass much. I could also just age in stainless and call it a carboy since stainless is similar to glass in the resulting wine.
Do you have oxygenation issues openly moving it this much?
Consensus says no fining agents, I think that's decided, then!
Thanks for indulging me in my attempt to be thorough and cover everything that a new winemaker might be thinking/deciding when making a red from grapes. If anyone can think of other questions to ask, even if you know what the "obvious" answer may be, please do so for everyone else that may review this thread!
Good question. It does seem like a lot of rackings, right. IMO since I'm racking under vacuum and adding kmeta at racking and on 3 month schedule (when in glass) and monthly (when in barrel at topup) I do not believe O2 is an issue.
Typical racking schedule when using my 15 gallon barrel (roughly)...
(1) After ferment (for gross lees)
(2) 3 weeks later (for finer lees)
(3) into barrel
(4) into carboys (for testing/additives)
(5) polishing rack (blending back top-up wine, add glycerin here)
(6) bottle
Arguably, one could skip racks 2, 4 and 5 and go right from ferment into barrel and then barrel to bottle but your carrying more sediment into the barrel this way and there is no other opportunity to make adjustments (tannin or more oak, glycerin) before bottling.
If bulk aging in carboys (no barrel), I would follow the same steps except there would be no rack in/out of the barrel. After racking #2 it would be bulk age for 9 to 12 months before a final polishing rack with glycerin added just prior to bottling.
Not saying any of this is the right way to do this. It's just what I'm doing.
What are the normal steps for a commercial winery?
Also, i believe if the wine was being overly oxygenated from all the rackings, it wouldn't improve when decanted. Since it does improve, I think it is not overly oxidized. Also, my gut tells me that a wine will be introduced to more O2 through a barrel than through vaccum racking between vessels. Regular splash racking might introduce more O2 than a vaccum but adding kmeta should also protect against this. I have yet to experience a negative affect from racking.
Also, some members on this forum rack (or used to rack) on a 3 month schedule during bulk aging. This could be 3 to 4x in a 1 yr aging process. I think this is excessive (effort). I don't rack unless there is a purpose for it. 1) Remove sediment. 2) Age/oak. 3) Test/additions. If I could do all this in less steps, I would. I hate touching the wine more than necessary.
Also, some members on this forum rack (or used to rack) on a 3 month schedule during bulk aging. This could be 3 to 4x in a 1 yr aging process. I think this is excessive (effort). I don't rack unless there is a purpose for it. 1) Remove sediment. 2) Age/oak. 3) Test/additions. If I could do all this in less steps, I would. I hate touching the wine more than necessary.
I can't speak on the specifics for all commercial wineries, but how I do it for reds in a very small winery (<5 acres) is like this:
1. Must fermentation -> press into vacuumed conical -> remove lees from under the wine, (thus conical) rather than moving wine from lees -> continue until clear unless more lees time is wanted. There is no exposure to the environment for any of this except initial open top fermenting. So I'll call it a single rack. The vacuum process decarbonates and fills the vessel with CO2, removing the need to top up or sparge. This is anything from a month to 9 months, but I have to get the equipment cleared out for next harvest.
2. (Optional) Gravity feed into barrels for micro oxygenation and aging for 30 week. (Lots of oxygen, can be dangerous in small batches)
3. Bottle (lots of oxygen)
4. drink within 0-3 years.
OR
2. Bottle (lots of oxygen)
3. age on cork for year (very small oxygen)
4. Drink within 1-10 years after letting it breath.
Edit: just found this interesting: https://ives-technicalreviews.eu/article/view/3097
With limited space, I am a big fan of bottle aging. I find it very predictable and repeatable. Many wineries capitalize on bottle aging for some varieties simply because it's so convenient and expensive bulk aging containers are at a premium.
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If you don't have a small neutral or near neutral barrel, going with glass or stainless steel is a better choice. Two of my three 55 liter barrels are neutral (manufactured in 2010), so long term aging is not a problem. I was given the third last fall -- it's 2 yo but had wine in it for ~13 months, so I'm watching it for over-oaking.
For most home winemakers, cost and storage are significant issues. Glass carboys are the solution for both problem.
Stainless is essentially the same result as glass, and you can store the wine as a single unit, instead of having it divided between multiple carboys. Many moons ago I had a pair of 13 gallon carboys, and those were heavy even when empty.
Following up on Brant's comment, I was originally taught to rack wine every 3 months. I did that for decades, but later questioned it, and in recent years researched many things. After reading about sur lie and bâtonnage, I greatly reduced my racking schedule, and currently rack only when the wine or the situation requires it. Typically for my barrel wines I press, rack 2 or 3 weeks later into a barrel, and rack again just prior to bottling. Situations for carboy wines may add another 1 to 2 rackings, but I keep the number as low as possible.
As an answer to your question, as far as I know, I have no significant O2 problems. Oxidation is not a rapid process -- it's a factor of wine volume vs headspace volume vs time. I rack efficiently (not rushed), and given that most of my production is currently in batches of more than 60 liters, vacuum doesn't work for me so I have not invested in it. Plus I add K-meta on schedule to address oxidation.
