wine aging on lees

[NJTom]

Hi everyone,
I am a long time beer home brewer and a total nube to wine making but, not to drinking it. Icurrently have a cab, cab franc, riesling and gewurtz all in their 6 gallon carboysresting on their lees for about 5 weeks waiting to be bottled, they look clear and great. How long can i let them in their present state before ihave tobottle? all suggestions are appreciated!!! thanks Tom
I have been lurking on these forums for months and this is my first post.

 

[ibglowin]

Welcome to the forums! Glad you found us.

Are you talking gross lees from the first racking or the fines that settle out after you have added the clearing agents?

If your talking gross lees you really need to get those off ASAP as they should never be left on more than a week or so. If your talking fines that have settled out I would get them off as well after about 4 weeks or so max depending on how fast the wine clears.

Gross lees and fines can contribute to off flavors down the road in your wine so get them off in a timely fashion.

 

[NJTom]

thanks, Mike.
It is the fine lees, I should have been more clear, this is all new to me. I will bottle soon.

 

[ibglowin]

OK thats better! I left a few kits on the fines for 3-4 months and those kits (all reds) had a metallic off flavor of sorts. That was the only thing I did differently than others so I now get them off the fines within 4 weeks.

 

[NJTom]

I will bottle this week, they all look great. Then I've got 3 more to start, next is building a cool wine cellar.

 

[Waldo]

What are your plans for the cellar

 

[Tom]

I will bottle this week, they all look great. Then I've got 3 more to start, next is building a cool wine cellar.

Are these kits? if so which ones?
Did you start these from fresh juice? If so its to early to bottle.
Did you degas?
Did you add meta?
Did you add clearing agents?
I would not rush to bottle.


Where in NJ are you?

 

[NJTom]

I don't have any plans yet, other than to make something large enough to grow my hobby and collection, i have plenty of space for anything I want to do.

 

[NJTom]

these were all kits, 3 MM, and the gewurtz was a grand cru. live in sparta. clearing agents have been added.
yes I degassed.

 

[Randoneur]

Sounds like you are doing pretty good for a newbie!!

 

[Bartman]

OK thats better! I left a few kits on the fines for 3-4 months and those kits (all reds) had a metallic off flavor of sorts. That was the only thing I did differently than others so I now get them off the fines within 4 weeks.

That's interesting Mike. I haven't noticed any particular off flavors from aging on the fine lees/sediment that drops out over time. I generally rack every three months, but I have let a couple carboys get past that point to the 5-month mark here recently; I'm hoping your metallic flavor-issue won't be a problem for me - but you also seem to have a finer-tuned taster than I have!

On the flip side, I thought there was some consensus that letting the lower-end kits bulk-age on the lees for a few months would allow it to impart a little more body and offset the thin-ness of the cheaper kits. If not, I better get that VN Valpolicella racked ASAP - it's only been racked once since I started it in May!

 

[ibglowin]

Conventional wisdom says to get the gross lees off sooner rather than later but then you have the "batonnage" process where you leave the gross lees on for a month or so as it will add a buttery creaminess to a chardonnay. Always an exception to the rule I suppose.

On the couple of kits that have a metallic "nose" they are all reds that I fined and then left the fines on for up to ~6 months. Thats the only thing I can come up with that was done differently from kit to kit. I suspect it may have been one the fining agents Kieselsol and or Chitosan used that over that length of time left something behind even after racking off the fines (and filtering the wine).

Hasn't stopped me from drinking the wine though.

 

[robie]

No matter what is said, there are always exceptions.

The gross lees for a chardonnay (a white) are considerably lighter than those for a red, especially a red from fresh/frozen grapes or one from a kit containing a nice grape pack.

Just think about what's in the gross lees of a typical red. That's why it can cause rotting. The lees from a chardonnay for the most part is yeast, especially the lees at the end of secondary, assuming one leaves behind much of the gross stuff when racking from primary to secondary.

Pinot Noir is a red that is sometimes left on the lees, but not on the gross lees. (Remember what I said about exceptions?)

The sur lies (lees aging) process is more about leaving the wine on the yeast remains, and not so much about the small grape particles. Of course there are always going to be some small particles present from the grape until the wine is fully cleared, but it is the dead/dieing yeast and their innards that adds the nutty, biscuit flavor.

Although I have read of examples of lees aging on other reds, from most of what I have read, one must be very careful about trying this on most reds.

Same with aromatic whites, the lees aging goes counter to what one usually looks for in an aromatic.

Leaving a red on its gross lees is considerably different than leaving it on the lees left at the end of secondary. Similarly, the secondary lees are a lot "grosser" than the lees from first clearing. What falls out (sediment) over the next few months after the red has been cleared and racked is even more minor. (With the latter, I would not want to leave my wine on them more than 3 or 4 months. But will it run the wine if left for 6 or 7 months? A lot, of course, would depend on the temperature range present while in contact.)

So as far as lees aging of reds, I would leave that for the professionals.

 

[Bartman]

No matter what is said, there are always exceptions.

The gross lees for a chardonnay (a white) are considerably lighter than those for a red, especially a red from fresh/frozen grapes or one from a kit containing a nice grape pack.

Just think about what's in the gross lees of a typical red. That's why it can cause rotting. The lees from a chardonnay for the most part is yeast, especially the lees at the end of secondary, assuming one leaves behind much of the gross stuff when racking from primary to secondary.

Pinot Noir is a red that is sometimes left on the lees, but not on the gross lees. (Remember what I said about exceptions?)

The sur lies (lees aging) process is more about leaving the wine on the yeast remains, and not so much about the small grape particles. Of course there are always going to be some small particles present from the grape until the wine is fully cleared, but it is the dead/dieing yeast and their innards that adds the nutty, biscuit flavor.

Although I have read of examples of lees aging on other reds, from most of what I have read, one must be very careful about trying this on most reds.

Same with aromatic whites, the lees aging goes counter to what one usually looks for in an aromatic.

Leaving a red on its gross lees is considerably different than leaving it on the lees left at the end of secondary. Similarly, the secondary lees are a lot "grosser" than the lees from first clearing. What falls out (sediment) over the next few months after the red has been cleared and racked is even more minor. (With the latter, I would not want to leave my wine on them more than 3 or 4 months. But will it run the wine if left for 6 or 7 months? A lot, of course, would depend on the temperature range present while in contact.)

So as far as lees aging of reds, I would leave that for the professionals.

You've put a lot of good info. in there Richard, I don't disagree with much, if any, of it. But what's your conclusion, age on the fine lees or don't? Saying 'Leave it to the professionals' isn't going to cut it (unless your a politician)!! If we were willing to do that, we wouldn't be making our own wine, right??

 

[robie]

Sorry Bart,



I was more addressing your's and Mike's last posts, more than the issue at hand. You are right, I didn't make any recommendation at all; sort of left the person hanging. OOPS!



Reisling and Gewurtz are aromatic wines. Normally, one does not want to age these on the lees. The process can strip off the delicate flavors and aromas and replace them with the yeasty, biscuity flavors, defeating the whole idea behind a delicate aromatic.

Sometimes a short term lees aging is done on aromatics just for balance and some improvement in mouth feel. But here we are dealing with kits and without experimenting, I wouldn't have a glue as to how long I would lees age them or what even to expect.

So I would not leave these whites on the lees for anything over what the instructions say. If secondary is finished, take them off the lees now.

For the reds, I would not chance off flavors or the slight potential for rotting. The yeasty, biscuity flavor from lees aging is not normally desired in a big red like these. I would follow the instructions and get the reds off the lees very soon after secondary is complete.

For both the two aromatics and the two reds, I would not stir them while they are on the secondary lees unless I suspected a stuck fermentation.

I hope that helps. I certainly am not an expert, I am just passing along what I have read. Since I am in the middle of a lees aging and lees stirring experiment, I have tried to read as much as possible, but I am sure I have missed tons of good info on the subject.

 

[NJTom]

THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO ANSWERED MY THREAD. I didn't bottle any of my wines until late December, leaving them on their fine lees for about 4 months, all 4 turned out fantastic.

 

[NJTom]

Thanks to everyone who responded, i let all 4 wines rest on their fine lees until about Christmas, whichwas about 4 months,all 4 wines turned out perfect.

 

[scubaman2151]

This should help answer your questions:
http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/surlie/surlie.htm