Other Why are my kits sour tasting?

[Boatboy24]

I have a handful of kits made over the last 18 months that are getting or have had a sour taste. With the research I've done, "sour taste" is always attributed to acid levels. But that can't be the case here - these are kits and I've done nothing to adjust the acid. I do add tannins and barrel age, but that's it. What could cause this? Does Brett cause a sour taste? That's about the only thought I've had. And by the way, this is only my kit wines, not wines made from grapes. I'm starting to think there's something wrong with the 'kit barrel'. If it is Brett, I've read I should fill the barrel with 70c water for several hours. I'd imagine it wouldn't hurt to add some meta too. Any other thoughts?

 

[ceeaton]

Jim, saw this when I was researching VP41 on Lallemands site. Looks like it is for the actual wine and not the barrel.

http://www.lallemandwine.com/products/catalogue/product-detail/?range=8&id=10

Not sure where you can purchase it either. Their description doesn't mention "sour" flavor notes, but barnyard, medicinal etc.

Hope the link is at least informational.

I have a work buddy here who brews Belgian Ales and uses Brett on a regular basis. I'll ask him for some suggestions on identifying it by things other than taste.

 

[ColemanM]

No, I don't believe it would be Brett. I just think it is kit juice. All of mine have or had that bite to them. Not sure why. They lessen when I decant for a few hours but who wants to wait to drink. A half empty bottle is better the next day. I'd venture to guess that it is the processing of the juice to kit juice.

 

[ibglowin]

Your not mixing kit wine and wine from fresh grapes in the same barrel are you by chance? Especially if you do MLF on the fresh grape wines.

 

[ColemanM]

That only matters if you use the sorbate in the kit.

 

[ibglowin]

Not quite.

A kit wine has been tartrate stabilized and should never undergo MLF. The results would be a very flabby wine which would certainly alter the taste of the wine in the end.

 

[ColemanM]

Who tartrate stabilizes? The manufacturer or the consumer? I've never adjusted TA in a kit.

 

[ibglowin]

The manufacturer.

 

[ColemanM]

What will it do to my grape wine I put into the barrel after a kit wine sans sorbate.

 

[ibglowin]

The problem is once a barrel has seen a wine that has gone through MLF you should only put wine from fresh grapes in the barrel after that. No more kits. You want to do kits still, get another barrel just for kits only. Don't mix kits and fresh grapes in the same barrel back and forth.

Sorbate and MLF is always a no no.

 

[ColemanM]

But I can put a fresh grape wine in AFTER a kit without sorbate correct?

 

[ibglowin]

Yes, just can't go back and forth. You don't want MLB bugs which will be in the walls of the barrel to start eating and messing up your perfectly balanced kit wine.

 

[ColemanM]

Oh man I was worried. Ok just grape wine now. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Boatboy24]

I have two barrels. One is exclusively for kits and one grape/juice wine only.

I would think if I had a kit that accidentally went through MLF, it would be flat tasting, and not tart/sour.

 

[wineinmd]

Can you give a little more info? Is the taste definitely sour or more towards tart? I see you listed both in your last post. Is it all kits? Only those that have been through the barrel? Whites vs. reds? Tannin addition/amount? Amount of time aging/in the barrel/in the bottle/total time? Were they all corked/stored the same way as your wine from grapes? Can you narrow down when the sour taste started to appear?

If there are any differences, that might help pinpoint where the problem might be.

 

[Boatboy24]

Can you give a little more info? Is the taste definitely sour or more towards tart? I see you listed both in your last post. Is it all kits? Only those that have been through the barrel? Whites vs. reds? Tannin addition/amount? Amount of time aging/in the barrel/in the bottle/total time? Were they all corked/stored the same way as your wine from grapes? Can you narrow down when the sour taste started to appear?

If there are any differences, that might help pinpoint where the problem might be.

I'm trying to nail these details down. Sour vs Tart? I'm not sure, but if I had to, I'd say tart more than sour. But I'm still trying to settle on it. I think I'm getting it in whites as well as reds, though it's harder to tell, as what I've made is supposed to show some crisp acidity and I think any sour or tart may just blend right in with that profile. But the last two whites I've made (2014 Chilean Viognier juice bucket and Jan 2015 Eclipse Sauv Blanc) have more of a bite than I would want them to. There are some reasons I can think of for that on the Viognier, but not on the SB. Storage conditions and barrel time are the same on all of the reds - they are in there for about 3 months. Of course, overall age differs, but this profile started to show with my En Primeur Pinot Noir that was started in July of 2013. The previous kit was a month earlier and was the EP Amarone. It has that sour/tart essence, but not nearly as bad as the Pinot. In April of that year, I did the California Grand Red and that is jaw droppingly excellent. Tannin additions vary, but I don't typically add more than a teaspoon. Sometimes this is during fermentation, sometimes during aging. I use Tancor Grand Cru or Tannin Riche Extra.

My initial line of thinking was that it was something in the barrel. I'm thinking I may have to buy two of the same kit, then one run through the barrel, and leave the other out and see what happens over time. That could prove to be an expensive experiment. But so would ruining every red from here forward. My other line of thinking is that this is just the way my pallete is now perceiving kit wines. I'm not so sure about that. I need to start taking better tasting notes before barrel aging and compare to post-barrel.

 

[ibglowin]

Jim,

Are saying your Eclipse Sauv Blanc taste sour/tart as well? If so have you had somebody else (who has taste buds you trust equally) try them side by side for taste comparison? If your Whites are tasting sour as well (and you have someone else to back you up) then I am thinking its something you've added or used in each of these/all of these wines. Could it be your taste buds? Do other things taste weird or bad such as foods? My elderly father came down with Dysgeusia about 9 months ago and everything he taste is off, way off. Just some thoughts.

 

[Boatboy24]

Yes, the Eclipse is a little sour/tart. But it is only 4 months old. My first one was good at 6 months, but took about a year to get to 'great'. So I'm not too concerned over that one. I gave about 6 bottles of various wines to my dad a couple weeks ago and am awaiting his feedback. I didn't mention my concern, other than to tell him I wasn't thrilled with the Pinot Noir, but wanted his impressions. And I'm having lunch with a friend today who is also a winemaker and will be giving him a handful of bottles to try.

Nothing else seems to taste weird or bad. This issue seems to be limited only to my kit wines, with the possible exception of the Viognier. And on that one, my pH ended up at 3.36, so I don't think its an acid issue. And the sour isn't too strong on that, especially when properly chilled. It's just a year old, and seems to still be improving (just bottled on 4/19).

 

[wineinmd]

I'm trying to nail these details down. Sour vs Tart? I'm not sure, but if I had to, I'd say tart more than sour. But I'm still trying to settle on it. I think I'm getting it in whites as well as reds, though it's harder to tell, as what I've made is supposed to show some crisp acidity and I think any sour or tart may just blend right in with that profile. But the last two whites I've made (2014 Chilean Viognier juice bucket and Jan 2015 Eclipse Sauv Blanc) have more of a bite than I would want them to. There are some reasons I can think of for that on the Viognier, but not on the SB. Storage conditions and barrel time are the same on all of the reds - they are in there for about 3 months. Of course, overall age differs, but this profile started to show with my En Primeur Pinot Noir that was started in July of 2013. The previous kit was a month earlier and was the EP Amarone. It has that sour/tart essence, but not nearly as bad as the Pinot. In April of that year, I did the California Grand Red and that is jaw droppingly excellent. Tannin additions vary, but I don't typically add more than a teaspoon. Sometimes this is during fermentation, sometimes during aging. I use Tancor Grand Cru or Tannin Riche Extra.

My initial line of thinking was that it was something in the barrel. I'm thinking I may have to buy two of the same kit, then one run through the barrel, and leave the other out and see what happens over time. That could prove to be an expensive experiment. But so would ruining every red from here forward. My other line of thinking is that this is just the way my pallete is now perceiving kit wines. I'm not so sure about that. I need to start taking better tasting notes before barrel aging and compare to post-barrel.

I'm going to see if I got the timeline right regarding your barrel.

April 2013: California Grand Red (excellent)
Next ??: EP Amarone (light tart/sour)
??: EP Pinot Noir (more noticeable tart/sour)

Is that timeline right? If so, it sort of looks like the off-flavor is increasing with subsequent batches through the barrel. Have you run any more kits through the barrel since the EP Pinot Noir?

ibglowin's idea should help decide if it related to your palette or not. That would be the easiest (although least favorable) answer.

 

[cmason1957]

I had a thought, maybe not a good one, but wanted to give you something more to think about. And anyone else who might have an opinion.

Could it be an astringency you are getting, more so than a sour/tart taste? Could it be your tannin additions causing this??

Don't take it as suggestion to not add tannin, but just a thought on my part.