When is a wine ready to drink

[dmguptill]

Like the straight PS, the 750’s of the PS/Zin are still untouched. They’ll sit at least another year, more likely two. I have an armful of 375’s of both that will get me to when they’re ready.

This thread has reminded me of a question I've had for a while: do the 375s age more or less quickly (or at least differently) than the 750s? I just wonder if the different headspace/liquid ratio makes a difference. Or do you find that they are pretty reliably similar?

 

[jgmann67]

This thread has reminded me of a question I've had for a while: do the 375s age more or less quickly (or at least differently) than the 750s? I just wonder if the different headspace/liquid ratio makes a difference. Or do you find that they are pretty reliably similar?

The headspace is similar, the cork is the same. In my experience, they age at about the same rate.

 

[baron4406]

I'm going to tick off some of you, with the realization that some of you have met me and I'm not a bad guy lol. I've made tons of Bourbon and beer. Its actually pretty easy to make a product that will blow away anything you can buy in the store. On the beer front the microbrew fad has lessened this gap a bunch. Then I got into winemaking. In my opinion YOU as the home winemaker cannot get the raw materials needed to make a top shelf wine, simple as that. In fact you'd be hard pressed to make even anything comparable to a high end kit. I'm saying this as we drank the "top off" wine from the first kit I did, and even at 6 months it blew away anything I've ever made. Right now its going to age a year in the bottle. The reason I saw this is I've gotten to know alot of local winery owners. In their mind any wine grapes you guy on the usual markets available to us are simply not the best grapes. One guy told me if I wanted to make a top shelf wine was get the most expensive kit I could get, barrel age it, then bottle age it for 2 years. Its also the main reason I am planning on my own backyard winery. I have room for 4 -120 foot row plus about 4 - 65 foot rows. What i don't have it the TIME to tend to it. One local winery told me he'd rent me an acre cheap-but I got enough space. Just mt opinion, keep your insults and criticisms kind!

 

[Thig]

What bourbon did you make, I assume by tons you mean you were a master distiller for a national brand.

 

[Johnd]

I'm going to tick off some of you, with the realization that some of you have met me and I'm not a bad guy lol. I've made tons of Bourbon and beer. Its actually pretty easy to make a product that will blow away anything you can buy in the store. On the beer front the microbrew fad has lessened this gap a bunch. Then I got into winemaking. In my opinion YOU as the home winemaker cannot get the raw materials needed to make a top shelf wine, simple as that. In fact you'd be hard pressed to make even anything comparable to a high end kit. I'm saying this as we drank the "top off" wine from the first kit I did, and even at 6 months it blew away anything I've ever made. Right now its going to age a year in the bottle. The reason I saw this is I've gotten to know alot of local winery owners. In their mind any wine grapes you guy on the usual markets available to us are simply not the best grapes. One guy told me if I wanted to make a top shelf wine was get the most expensive kit I could get, barrel age it, then bottle age it for 2 years. Its also the main reason I am planning on my own backyard winery. I have room for 4 -120 foot row plus about 4 - 65 foot rows. What i don't have it the TIME to tend to it. One local winery told me he'd rent me an acre cheap-but I got enough space. Just mt opinion, keep your insults and criticisms kind!

My experience is quite the opposite. Having made 40+ kits, high end (MM Meglioli, WE Eclipse, CC Showcase, etc), barrel aged, now 2, 3, 4 years and older, my grape wines at 2 years blow them out of the water. Just my experience and opinion.

On the topic of getting good grapes, we agree there. We can get some pretty good quality grapes, but don’t possess the buying power nor the pocketbook to compete with the big boy wineries, who get the best stuff. Last year, I read that grapes from the Beckstoffer To Kalon Vineyard were selling over $15,000 per ton, and you don’t choose to buy them, you are chosen to have the opportunity. That’s not in my vocabulary, and though it’s an extreme case, it seems that to varying degrees, when excellent grape growers are selling their wares, they’re gobbled up before we ever see them.

Nonetheless, I suspect that the wine kit makers aren’t buying premium grapes either, and I believe that I have the upper hand, as my wines are fermented on the skins, the natural way, not manipulated with man made techniques to simulate the natural process without the hassle. I’m not dogging kits at all, and have made some very nice wines with them. Just a different opinion.

 

[heatherd]

This will be my third season making wine from grapes. In 2016, I did a Petit Sirah and in 2017 I jumped in the deep end with Cab, Merlot and Petit Verdot. This year I'm making OVZ.

My wife an I were having this debate the other night. She thinks I should stop making wine from grapes (WFG) until I figure out whether it is better than wine-from-kits. I told her that was nonsense (in a nice way of course). WFG should turn out a better product and it's just matter of waiting for a wine to mature. If I stopped making WFG that would leave a hole in my production that would take another year to make up. Besides, I'm still making kits the rest of the year.

So, we're going to continue on the path we staked out. But, in your experience, how long does it take for these wines to shine? I'm thinking at least 3, maybe , years.

@jgmann67 I find that it depends. Whites from juice or all grape seem to mature more quickly. Then red blends and fruitier reds like your OVZ. Then really heavy-bodied things like your PV, PS, and Cab - the more oak, skins, tannins, etc. the more they seem to need to age.

I usually do one all-grape batch per year. Beyond that, my reds are most often juice bucket + lug. That said, this year I'm doing a two-continent Cab Sauv from Australian juice and wine grapes direct CA grapes.

 

[CK55]

I'm going to tick off some of you, with the realization that some of you have met me and I'm not a bad guy lol. I've made tons of Bourbon and beer. Its actually pretty easy to make a product that will blow away anything you can buy in the store. On the beer front the microbrew fad has lessened this gap a bunch. Then I got into winemaking. In my opinion YOU as the home winemaker cannot get the raw materials needed to make a top shelf wine, simple as that. In fact you'd be hard pressed to make even anything comparable to a high end kit. I'm saying this as we drank the "top off" wine from the first kit I did, and even at 6 months it blew away anything I've ever made. Right now its going to age a year in the bottle. The reason I saw this is I've gotten to know alot of local winery owners. In their mind any wine grapes you guy on the usual markets available to us are simply not the best grapes. One guy told me if I wanted to make a top shelf wine was get the most expensive kit I could get, barrel age it, then bottle age it for 2 years. Its also the main reason I am planning on my own backyard winery. I have room for 4 -120 foot row plus about 4 - 65 foot rows. What i don't have it the TIME to tend to it. One local winery told me he'd rent me an acre cheap-but I got enough space. Just mt opinion, keep your insults and criticisms kind!

Yeah, I do mostly all grape, and have a large home vineyard. I blow a lot of the local wineries out of the water grape wise because i have simply put a better piece of land for the grapes im growing than they do. Plus this guy who has a winery down the road sucks at making wine, everyone i talk to tells me they hate his wine.Thus far i have no idea how he survives making bad wine and charging $85 a bottle.

 

[pgentile]

I'm going to tick off some of you, with the realization that some of you have met me and I'm not a bad guy lol. I've made tons of Bourbon and beer. Its actually pretty easy to make a product that will blow away anything you can buy in the store. On the beer front the microbrew fad has lessened this gap a bunch. Then I got into winemaking. In my opinion YOU as the home winemaker cannot get the raw materials needed to make a top shelf wine, simple as that. In fact you'd be hard pressed to make even anything comparable to a high end kit. I'm saying this as we drank the "top off" wine from the first kit I did, and even at 6 months it blew away anything I've ever made. Right now its going to age a year in the bottle. The reason I saw this is I've gotten to know alot of local winery owners. In their mind any wine grapes you guy on the usual markets available to us are simply not the best grapes. One guy told me if I wanted to make a top shelf wine was get the most expensive kit I could get, barrel age it, then bottle age it for 2 years. Its also the main reason I am planning on my own backyard winery. I have room for 4 -120 foot row plus about 4 - 65 foot rows. What i don't have it the TIME to tend to it. One local winery told me he'd rent me an acre cheap-but I got enough space. Just mt opinion, keep your insults and criticisms kind!

My experience with kits and grapes is similar to @Johnd, not quite as extensive but similar. The only reason I could see that kit manufacturers getting better grapes/juice would be their buying power with volume and probably only on the premium kits.

From california and chile I have gotten some grapes that I am absolutely sure weren't the best fruit available. Most of that was the basic tier grapes. But from most of the premium offerings I have purchased and especially South African grapes, I can't image how the grapes could be any better. Brix as well as all other numbers good, taste was good upfront and is even better now at six months. Can't wait to taste these 2-3 years down the road.

I have no experience with any but some of the frozen musts seem to be top notch grapes.

Also I would imagine that vineyards that have excess grapes and are selling them to the home market want to keep their customers happy with the best fruit they can. While not probably the best grapes from any given year we probably get pretty good fruit most of the time.

The worst grapes probably go to juice bucket and/or medium to low end kits. Where nobody will ever see the grapes.

 

[CK55]

My experience with kits and grapes is similar to @Johnd, not quite as extensive but similar. The only reason I could see that kit manufacturers getting better grapes/juice would be their buying power with volume and probably only on the premium kits.

From california and chile I have gotten some grapes that I am absolutely sure weren't the best fruit available. Most of that was the basic tier grapes. But from most of the premium offerings I have purchased and especially South African grapes, I can't image how the grapes could be any better. Brix as well as all other numbers good, taste was good upfront and is even better now at six months. Can't wait to taste these 2-3 years down the road.

I have no experience with any but some of the frozen musts seem to be top notch grapes.

Also I would imagine that vineyards that have excess grapes and are selling them to the home market want to keep their customers happy with the best fruit they can. While not probably the best grapes from any given year we probably get pretty good fruit most of the time.

The worst grapes probably go to juice bucket and/or medium to low end kits. Where nobody will ever see the grapes.

Yeah

 

[heatherd]

My experience with kits and grapes is similar to @Johnd, not quite as extensive but similar. The only reason I could see that kit manufacturers getting better grapes/juice would be their buying power with volume and probably only on the premium kits.

From california and chile I have gotten some grapes that I am absolutely sure weren't the best fruit available. Most of that was the basic tier grapes. But from most of the premium offerings I have purchased and especially South African grapes, I can't image how the grapes could be any better. Brix as well as all other numbers good, taste was good upfront and is even better now at six months. Can't wait to taste these 2-3 years down the road.

I have no experience with any but some of the frozen musts seem to be top notch grapes.

Also I would imagine that vineyards that have excess grapes and are selling them to the home market want to keep their customers happy with the best fruit they can. While not probably the best grapes from any given year we probably get pretty good fruit most of the time.

The worst grapes probably go to juice bucket and/or medium to low end kits. Where nobody will ever see the grapes.

Having tasted your SA pinotage, I can affirm that. It is already really good....

 

[Masbustelo]

I don't know if you have touched on wine "nouveau" or "Vin de Primeur"? I think certainly vintage year affects drinkability. Last year in the Midwest, August- September were dry and warm. I picked about 100 lbs of Petite Pearl. They were surprisingly light weight per bunch. I had to pick about two more buckets than I had planned on to get the weight I was after. The brix and Ph were good, but the lack of rain seemed to affect the weight of the bunches. The wine finished dry and dark, with strong tannins, great color, low Ph 3.4 and had a high skins to liquid ratio. I suspect it will be very good in 3-4 years. This year we had high heat, tons of rain. I picked early at 3.77Ph and low TA, brix 20. The stems were a little green, but I picked because days of more rain were coming. I added honey to bring the S.G. to 1.095, and tartaric acid to ring the Ph to 3.5. The wine is totally different from last year. Very fruity, with a nice ruby color. More like a Marquette. I plan to bottle it in a month and drink it starting at Thanksgiving and let last years keep cellaring.

 

[baron4406]

What bourbon did you make, I assume by tons you mean you were a master distiller for a national brand.

I was a master "home" distiller with.....ahem.........home made equipment. What's funny about that is the way you can "cheat" and make a vastly superior product. There is a huge subculture in that community that constantly experiments with the best materials. My favorite was the rye I made, I had several people tell me it was the best rye they ever tasted. My secret? You'd laugh if you heard it. Its a darn fun hobby even if you are constantly peeking out the door for the "revenue man".

 

[bluedart]

It certainly depends upon the type of wine you are making, as well as your individual process and taste. For instance, a gently handled sangiovese wine would probably be approachable sooner than a small berried petite sirah on which you used highly effective extraction techniques, vigorous punchdowns, and hard pressing. My personal observations are that most professional winemakers / commercial wineries release their wines to public roughly 2 years after harvest, that is some indication of when they believe that the wine is fit for public consumption, though they will improve for many years. Many French wines are completely closed and not very pleasing for 5 years or more.

My experience with what we do as home winemakers is in line with your assertion, 2 - 3 years or more. Big changes noted in in the 1-2 year time frame seem to be pretty consistent in my wines, and the 3+ wines are really good. My personal belief is that, given good fruit, you'll make much better wine with grapes than with kits, it just takes longer to get the supply chain rolling. We made a lot of kits in the first few years, they are quite nice and we drink them regularly while letting the WFG wines sit in the cellar and get some years on them.

How often and much do you add Potassium metabisulfite over these time frames?

 

[Ajmassa]

How often and much do you add Potassium metabisulfite over these time frames?

Technical correct way- ability to test ph and So2 needed. And adjusting based off the ph/free So2 chart.

Universally accepted way- dosing 1/4 tsp per 6 gal every 3 months. (Should easily keep you above 50ppm throughout) *(in a barrel closer to every 1 month I believe)

 

[Johnd]

How often and much do you add Potassium metabisulfite over these time frames?

@Ajmassa5983 took the words right out of my stylus......

 

[Vito]

Question - “when is wine ready to drink?”

Answer- “when it tastes good to you”

I know some guys who drink juice buckets after a few months... they feel like it tastes perfectly fine at that point...

I personally wouldn’t even attempt to drink anything at that point. It doesn’t taste good to me. It’s just to young for my liking.

If you like it at 3 months... drink it.
If you like at at 2 years ... drink it then.