Other taking the next step

[Buonissimo]

my thanks to all for the suggestions. this is so much fun!

 

[LeChat]

OK more questions to the business at hand......The 6 happy carboys awaiting.........crap I want to start drinking them....how does one resist???

Here is the list...looking for any advice to add to there complexity
(all in Carboys Now)
Started 12/25 Eclipse pinot, Sel Brunello, Sel Luna rossa
""1/15 Sel Sangiovese, Sel Vieux Ch Du Roi, Sel Cabernet, Eclipse Lodi OV Zin

Also have a lonely Eclipse Lodi Cabernet still in the box.....resisting until i get some good advice to make this special from start to finish.

BTW. Got a All in one Wine Pump. What a great device......love that thing. Steve is a great help. Big thanks to him

Hey there,

I notice that there is a lot of air on top of your carboys. This is ok if the wine is not done fermenting, but you want to top up all the way to the narrow part of the carboy to limit exposure to O2 when you are going to age.

I would not want to see all that wine go to the oxidation monster!!!

 

[Buonissimo]

ok thanks. I believe from searching other posts that I can top up with another good similar commercial wine? Wont change profile too much? Also ordered marbles from morewine.

also am I the only one that has that much room in a 6 gallon carboy after primary? I make it with 6 gallons of water as instructed but these all come up short?

 

[eblasmn9]

also am I the only one that has that much room in a 6 gallon carboy after primary? I make it with 6 gallons of water as instructed but these all come up short?

After I rack from the primary to my carboys, I have the exact amount of space left in the top of my carboys. I have found that all of my 6 gallon glass carboys are larger than 6 gallons, so you might want to keep that in mind.

 

[sour_grapes]

ok thanks. I believe from searching other posts that I can top up with another good similar commercial wine? Wont change profile too much? Also ordered marbles from morewine.

also am I the only one that has that much room in a 6 gallon carboy after primary? I make it with 6 gallons of water as instructed but these all come up short?

No, you are not alone! That is about what I get, too.

Here is a thread I had early in my WMT career detailing this revelation: http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f3/carboy-confusion-41520/

 

[jsiddall]

Frozen must is in the lower range of a kit cost, but you get the advantages of making wine directly from grapes, as well as being able to access the must all year long. This can be shipped, and there are a couple of vendors online. I have made a double batch of cab Sauvignon from a fresh juice pail plus frozen must pail and it is quite good already.

You will need additional testing equipment, but it's a good long-term investment anyway.

I keep things simple and fairly cheap, plus I am space-constrained. So the fresh juice + lug of crushed grapes is perfect for me. I can press by hand at that volume. I bulk age in carboys with oak spirals for 5-6 months and then bottle age to a year or more. Works for me!

Heather

I started looking into frozen grapes but don't see how these are at all comparable to even a high end kit in terms of price.

Looking at a Brehm Cabernet Sauvignon for example, the prices range from $146 to $269 averaging about $210 per pail. Add the $20 handling fee and perhaps another $20 shipping fee the total comes out around $250. Count yeast, MLF bacteria, tannin, nutrient, plus testing supplies (not the equipment itself) etc. and you are perhaps adding another $30. That works out to $280 per 3 gal finished wine, or $560 per 6 gal finished wine.

The most expensive kit at my LHBS is a Cellar Craft Showcase Cabernet Red Mountain which is regularly $154 or $141 on sale.

Certainly I would expect the wine out of an average frozen grape pail to be superior to that of even the top kits but it is almost 4 times as expensive!

 

[LeChat]

I started looking into frozen grapes but don't see how these are at all comparable to even a high end kit in terms of price.

Looking at a Brehm Cabernet Sauvignon for example, the prices range from $146 to $269 averaging about $210 per pail. Add the $20 handling fee and perhaps another $20 shipping fee the total comes out around $250. Count yeast, MLF bacteria, tannin, nutrient, plus testing supplies (not the equipment itself) etc. and you are perhaps adding another $30. That works out to $280 per 3 gal finished wine, or $560 per 6 gal finished wine.

The most expensive kit at my LHBS is a Cellar Craft Showcase Cabernet Red Mountain which is regularly $154 or $141 on sale.

Certainly I would expect the wine out of an average frozen grape pail to be superior to that of even the top kits but it is almost 4 times as expensive!

Have you tried going to another LHBS?

I am also in your area and I know of at least 2 that sell juice or must (juice with skins) for acceptable prices (125-150$ for 6 gallons).

Send me a PM for more information.

 

[heatherd]

I started looking into frozen grapes but don't see how these are at all comparable to even a high end kit in terms of price.

Looking at a Brehm Cabernet Sauvignon for example, the prices range from $146 to $269 averaging about $210 per pail. Add the $20 handling fee and perhaps another $20 shipping fee the total comes out around $250. Count yeast, MLF bacteria, tannin, nutrient, plus testing supplies (not the equipment itself) etc. and you are perhaps adding another $30. That works out to $280 per 3 gal finished wine, or $560 per 6 gal finished wine.

The most expensive kit at my LHBS is a Cellar Craft Showcase Cabernet Red Mountain which is regularly $154 or $141 on sale.

Certainly I would expect the wine out of an average frozen grape pail to be superior to that of even the top kits but it is almost 4 times as expensive!

Depends on where you shop. Winegrapesdirect.com has red must as low as $75 and M&M has a range of prices as well. Fresh juice pails can be as low as $52. In those lower price ranges, the fresh and frozen stuff gets more competitive.

 

[ColemanM]

Depends on where you shop. Winegrapesdirect.com has red must as low as $75 and M&M has a range of prices as well. Fresh juice pails can be as low as $52. In those lower price ranges, the fresh and frozen stuff gets more competitive.

Yes, the Merlot is $75 but has 30 shipping per bucket. Plus MLB etc you're looking at $220 for 6 gallons. If you like merlot, you're in luck but step up to the Cabernet and the price goes up, sometimes exponentially. But let's not get hung up on a quote about price. The issue is the next step. Yes, you're next step will be more expensive, but I think, well worth it.

 

[jsiddall]

Yes, you're next step will be more expensive, but I think, well worth it.

That's good because the absolute cost isn't of concern for me. I am ultimately interested in the value. If a CC Showcase Cabernet Red Mountain ($150) kit, properly aged, can make wine comparable to a $15 commercial bottle then is it reasonable to expect that an average Brehm Cabernet bucket can make wine equivalent to a $60 commercial bottle? I would love for that to be true.

 

[jsiddall]

Depends on where you shop. Winegrapesdirect.com has red must as low as $75 and M&M has a range of prices as well. Fresh juice pails can be as low as $52. In those lower price ranges, the fresh and frozen stuff gets more competitive.

From what I have read juice probably won't make the nice big red I am interested in so I will skip those, regardless of how inexpensive they are.

That leaves some sort of must. Frozen grapes is pure grapes so the source material there is obvious. I am wondering about the skin content of other musts -- either fresh or frozen. Products like Mosti Mondiale frozen pails come with 4 L grape skins separately but that is probably only 20% of the amount of skins that would come in a frozen grape bucket.

So how much skins is enough to make an excellent big red?

Also, do you get what you pay for with the various offerings? The same varietal from some vineyards cost 2-3 times as much as others. Does that imply they will make a correspondingly better end product?

 

[Buonissimo]

great discussion and i have gathered much info.

Got my first Vadai Oak Barrel. Prepping it with boiling water now. I highly recommend the folks at Vadai. They are great. Looking forward to using the barrel once I am sure it is tight and sealed.

Also spoke to the folks at wine grapes direct and ordering my first 2 pails of frozen must!

All thanks to the great input y'all have taken the time to post. I will give my honest opinion once i get that batch done. I love this stuff!!!

Christopher

 

[ColemanM]

Which grape must did you end up getting?

 

[Boatboy24]

great discussion and i have gathered much info.

Got my first Vadai Oak Barrel. Prepping it with boiling water now. I highly recommend the folks at Vadai. They are great. Looking forward to using the barrel once I am sure it is tight and sealed.

Also spoke to the folks at wine grapes direct and ordering my first 2 pails of frozen must!

All thanks to the great input y'all have taken the time to post. I will give my honest opinion once i get that batch done. I love this stuff!!!

Christopher

All right. He's hooked. Someone reel him in.

 

[Buonissimo]

Yes I am......

Sonoma Coast Durell Syrah...2 pails. Will ship out week after next.

That being said....should i fork out the cash for fancy testers or use the cheaper kits (pH/TA etc)

 

[Buonissimo]

new addition

i am so excited.......

my very first kit on its maiden voyage into the barrel!

 

[ColemanM]

I think you can get away with the cheap test strips etc for now, but if you purchase more grape musts, I'd seriously consider buying real equipment. You MUST have an SO2 tester, if you plan on barrel aging. You really should have a chromatography set up for testing MLF and its completion. And either a good pH tester or a pH/TA tester combo to hone in on your "perfect" wine numbers. Or to test the wine you find perfect to see what it is. Good luck with those pails!! Watch the oak in your first fill, it sneaks up on you fast!

 

[ColemanM]

So I just had my good friend over, the only other wine drinker really besides myself. We have what is called a "barrel tasting" night. Basically drink through my available carboys. We started off with a 50/50 blend of cab/Merlot from frozen must from WGD. A little off dry and very fruit foreword, 6 months old. Then went 50/50 blend again but added 50% Sangiovese kit wine fermented on the skins of the Cabernet pressed grapes. Very Italian tasting. Then we went to a two year old WE Eclipse OVZin that just got out of the Vadai barrel after 4 months. He said it was better than bogel wine. Then we started in on the wine kits I used pressed grapes on. Another WE OVZ was much much better, at only three months. My petite Verdot with Merlot skins. Probably my favorite of the night. And then a rum. I'd have to say wine kits with grape skins are good, but wine kits with GRAPE skins are so much better. I couldn't get a good picture of the legs I was getting off my kits that were only three months old, but I told my buddy, these legs are worth going to jail over! My point. Your next step might be two steps. Fresh/frozen grapes and then kits with the grape skins tossed in.

 

[ehammonds]

Interesting. So you're using kit juice but with pressed skins? Where r u getting the skins from? If the kit comes with skins, do you use those skins along with the other skins? Sounds like a great method.

 

[ColemanM]

I get the grape must from winegrapesdirect. If the kit comes with skins, I toss them in also. I've had to add a little more water (@750 ml) but am guessing the skins add about 1/2 to 1 1/2 extra ABV points. I think it makes kits very impressive.