Sanitizing EVERYthing

[montanaWineGuy]

A factoid: The average person in the USA swallows 8 spiders a year during his/her sleep.

I personally have never swallowed even one, so likely 8.0000000001 for you. Some useable microscopic bacteria can exist no matter what I do about it. What I can do is not think about it.

 

[wineforfun]

To each their own. A couple squirts from a spray bottle adds less than one minute to my timeline and a couple pennies to the overall cost. I'm busy, but not so busy that I can't fit that in.

Maybe the brewer in me is making this a bigger deal than it needs to be in winemaking. It seems like there are a half dozen posts each day on the sister site about infections. I would be sad if I had to dump a $30 batch of beer that I'd been working on for a month. I shudder at the thought of dumping $150 down the drain that I'd been working on for many months, all the while knowing it could have been prevented by a couple quick squeezes on the trigger of a spray bottle.

Again, I get it and yes, to each their own. Not trying to sway anyone to do what I do, just stating what I do. Maybe my process is being missed but it isn't like I am using the spoon to stir spaghetti sauce, rinsing it, then stirring my must. My tools are staying very clean, less the spraying with sanitizer everytime I hold them.

As others have mentioned, the tools are only used in my winemaking, cleaned immediately after use with scalding hot water, dried and put back in it's place. Would it take much/long to spray it? No. It's just something I don't do and have had no issues.

As far as the "sister site", I would like to know exactly what their process was, where their tools were stored, where they live, how clean their wine area is, etc. A lot of other factors could cause their infections.

 

[wineinmd]

Again, I get it and yes, to each their own. Not trying to sway anyone to do what I do, just stating what I do. Maybe my process is being missed but it isn't like I am using the spoon to stir spaghetti sauce, rinsing it, then stirring my must. My tools are staying very clean, less the spraying with sanitizer everytime I hold them.

As others have mentioned, the tools are only used in my winemaking, cleaned immediately after use with scalding hot water, dried and put back in it's place. Would it take much/long to spray it? No. It's just something I don't do and have had no issues.

As far as the "sister site", I would like to know exactly what their process was, where their tools were stored, where they live, how clean their wine area is, etc. A lot of other factors could cause their infections.

The sister site I'm referring to is homebrewtalk. I can't speak to each individual case, but I imagine most of them were as confident in their sanitary practices as you are. Infections can come from something as simple as a scratch on a bucket or the nooks and crannies of bottling equipment.

From what I've read, 140 degrees is a pretty safe temperature for killing most common bacteria. 2nd degree burns start in 2.8 seconds at that temperature and 3rd degree burns start in 5.4 seconds.

 

[GreginND]

For the record, beer brewing is a completely different beast than winemaking when it comes to spoilage and bacteria. The pH of beer can be significantly higher than wine and the alcohol level is much lower. Thus, a much greater range of bacteria can proliferate in beer. Thus, beer brewers have rightly adopted quite stringent sanitation protocols.

Wine, on the other hand, is quite inhospitable to most bacteria. As a matter of fact, I don't know of any bacteria that could cause illness in people that could live in wine given the higher alcohol (>10%) and low pH (<4.0). The main concern with sanitation and protection of wine are spoilage bacteria such as acetobacter (vinegar bacteria) and lactic acid bacteria (lactobacillus), pediococcus and some oenococcus species. These bacteria are controlled with adequate SO2 levels.

The greatest danger is with grape must before the sugar is consumed and alcohol is low. Thus, it is most important to sanitize equipment well before and during fermentation. Still, if you have clean dry equipment and a clean work area, the risk of any problem is quite low. I worry a lot less as fermentation nears the end and alcohol levels are higher.

People have been making perfectly quaffable wine for thousands of years before sanitation became available. The biggest modern advance has not been in making the product safer (if it tastes bad, you don't drink it) - but in preventing spoilage using SO2 allowing it to last longer.

 

[wineinmd]

Great info, Greg. Thanks for that.

Quite low still isn't low enough for me, given the investment. You'll have to pry the spray bottle of Starsan from my cold, dead hands.

 

[wineforfun]

The main concern with sanitation and protection of wine are spoilage bacteria such as acetobacter (vinegar bacteria) and lactic acid bacteria (lactobacillus), pediococcus and some oenococcus species.

All I can say is after seeing all those "unrecognizable" words in one sentence, I will NEVER question anything Greg states.

Seriously, very good synopsis of things.

 

[Runningwolf]

All I can say is after seeing all those "unrecognizable" words in one sentence, I will NEVER question anything Greg states.

wineforfun, you've got me cracking up. I learned that a long time ago with Greg and to think he's just some vegetable farmer.

140° is not enough to sanitize but if the instrument is under the constant 140° for an amount of time it will help. 180° is the industry standard for sanitizing. Commercial dishwashers in tasting rooms all run at this temp. My hot water tank is also sat at this temp in the winemaking area. Even at this temperature it requires enough contact time. A good meta/citric solution is best since at sanitizes on contact.

I have a wine that is popping about 20% of the corks. After a lot of research and analysis we determined it was from a few bottling heads that had bacteria on them. So lesson learned, even with routine cleaning and maintenance it's still lurking somewhere. It might not bite you in the a$$ today or tomorrow but when it does you'll know it.

 

[GreginND]

Dan, that's interesting. What bacteria would grow in the wine if it is properly sulfited?

 

[olusteebus]

I use stars an in a spray bottle to spray tools, bottles as opposed to kmeta. My impression is that kmeta kills bad stuff with gases from it while stars an kills by contact. Thus, I feel stars now is better for a spray. I usually make a five gallon batch of stars an every month or so and keep it covered with a lid.

I make a gallon of kmeta and store car boys with bungs and tools in a sealed bucket.

I rinse car boys with stars an.

 

[MarkTX]

Yes I pretty much sanitize everything as I go but keep it simple.

I bought a $6 cheap tall plastic kitchen size trash can that I only use for cleaning / sanitizing. Everything from tall stir spoons, auto syphons, wine thief etc fit inside.

I use unscented oxyclean to clean. Toss a spoonful in the trash can with some water.

After rinsing / cleaning with oxyclean I then use the trash can w spray bottles to sanitize everything. Keeps the mess contained for quick clean & done.

StarSan & K-Meta (potassium metabisulfite) are for sanitizing (not cleaning). I sharpie labelled a 2 liter soda bottle with Star San & another with K-Meta. A pound bag of K-meta is pretty cheap and lasts a long time. I put a tablespoon of K-meta powder in the 2 liter bottle of water which is a strong concentration that lasts even when it is down to a half liter.

Then I sharpie label two spray bottles. Star San & K-Meta. I keep these along with a roll of paper towels where I work with wine. They are within reach so things just get sprayed down. After using a wine thief or hydrometer they get sprayed. Air locks / stoppers get K-meta sprayed.

After transferring from primary I give the buckets a rinse out with water then mist them with both starsan / K-meta & put the lid on for a day. Don't know why but it works. When I do get around to cleaning them out with oxyclean, they already are sanitized so they are easy to clean & wine smell is gone.

I don't have a cleaning disorder. Early on I had a batch of wine that had really "off" flavor & I suspect it was because I wasn't "sanitizing as I go along".