Other Religiously follow instructions?

[Seke]

Hi all, I'm the new guy on the block. Really like this forum.

Also pretty new to amateur winemaking, but have been enjoying and learning about professionally made wine for several decennia.

First question : what is the general feeling about following the wine kit instructions..? Especially with regard to the use of sorbate and clarifying agents (bentonite, chitosan, isinglass)?

If you are making a dry wine and bulk age it for an extended period of time, instead of bottling after X weeks as the instructions say, wouldn't it be better to leave these additives out?

 

[Boatboy24]

Kits come with instructions?

Early on, I followed them pretty religiously, until I had a good feeling for the process. Actually, I didn't use clarifiers on my very first wine. But I let it age longer than called for. I normally will still use clarifiers these days, but typically leave out the sorbate unless I'm sweetening. Beyond that though, I read the instructions, but don't follow very closely.

Welcome to WineMakingTalk!

 

[cpfan]

Hi all, I'm the new guy on the block. Really like this forum.

Also pretty new to amateur winemaking, but have been enjoying and learning about professionally made wine for several decennia.

First question : what is the general feeling about following the wine kit instructions..? Especially with regard to the use of sorbate and clarifying agents (bentonite, chitosan, isinglass)?

If you are making a dry wine and bulk age it for an extended period of time, instead of bottling after X weeks as the instructions say, wouldn't it be better to leave these additives out?

I don't know what kind of kits are available in Sweden, and if their instructions are any good.

Generally, I recommend that newcomers follow the instructions closely. Time frames can be extended (except the move out of the primary). Sorbate can be left out if your sanitation is good, no sweeteners added, complete fermentation, etc etc. I don't recommend leaving out the bentonite because it does more than clearing, it aids in ensuring a complete, timely fermentation when added to the primary. Sure if you are going to leave the wine for several months, you can omit the chitosan or isinglass, but most newcomers want to drink their wine sooner rather than later (believe me I ran a small store for a few years).

Steve

 

[cimbaliw]

If you're not going to tweak the wine while aging; adding oak, tannins etc., you might considering bottling the wine on the instruction's schedule.

Bulk v. bottle aging is often debated here. If you're short on carboys and anxious to get to your next batch, bottle aging is certainly an acceptable practice.

Welcome to the forum. What kind of music are you listening to? I listen to a good deal of Scandinavian stuff like Sigur Ros, Arve Hendrickson, Opeth and Green Carnation. Usually, the mellower side of the last two.

BC

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

First Kit follow the instructions, second kit start to make what you think are going to be improvements but keep some bottles of your first kit around to compare over time. Or, skip the kits and start using grapes and you can make all your own decisions WVMJ

 

[bkisel]

Welcome to the forum!

Personally, with kits, I would always use the stabilizers and fining agents provided even if I were bulk aging. I don't think they hurt anything though I guess they're part of the kit design so that you can produce halfway decent early drinkers.

 

[wildvines]

I read the instructions but do tweak. I go to a local wine bar that makes kit wines and you can taste the wines. So I get a feel of the taste of a kit wine if you followed the instructions. Then I just tweak to my liking.


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[Seke]

Kit wines vs wines from fresh grapes

Thanks for all the replies!

In our part of the world we have been lacking good quality materials for home winemaking. For home beermaking we are fine - I have been homebrewing for more than 20 years and there is an amazing community around this. Home winemaking is different. We are so far north there is barely any grape growing - only in the far south of the country and even there only a few more or less obscure hybrid varieties can support the climate.

And the kits that have been available here have been only low-end stuff, compared to what you guys in North America have access to. Only recently do we get Canadian kits (Winexpert).

I did get some grapes from Italy last season, and I found that even though the particular grapes I got were pretty weak in sugar (only 19 Brix / 1.078 SG) the wine had a higher "drinkability" than the kit wines I have made (RJ Spagnols). They all seem to have more or less of a certain tang to them - I wonder if it comes from the production process which must include pasteurization?

At the same time I see that a lot of kit wines get awards at the WineMaker Competition, where kit wines compete directly with wines from fresh grapes...

Apart from these general discussions (which I would love to hear comments about) I have a more specific follow-up question regarding kit instructions. I am currently doing some Winexpert kits, and the oak included comes in two forms. Chips/powder and cubes (not all kits have both). The chips/powder goes in the primary fermentation - I guess this is mostly for tannin and structure. But the oak cubes included with some kits (Eclipse and Selection International) should according to the instructions be added at the stabilising and clearing phase, and be removed at the racking and clarification phase only 8 days later. Isn't this a very short exposure time for the oak cubes?

 

[sour_grapes]

But the oak cubes included with some kits (Eclipse and Selection International) should according to the instructions be added at the stabilising and clearing phase, and be removed at the racking and clarification phase only 8 days later. Isn't this a very short exposure time for the oak cubes?

Yes, it is. Most people here recover the cubes when racking after clarification, rinse them off, and then put the cubes back in the wine for bulk aging. Probably should taste the wine from time to time to avoid over-oaking, although I personally have not been in any danger of that when just using the oak from the kit.

And welcome to WMT! My wife just got back from a brief trip to Lund. Spring was much farther along there than it is here!

 

[Seke]

OK, I can see that it is a difficult task to write kit instructions. I'm sure they want to keep it simple, so they can't assume that people will reuse the cubes like that.

But without losing simplicity it might be better to suggest that the oak cubes should be added in phase 4, racking and clarification, which is suggested to last 28 days instead of the meagre 8 days in phase 3, stabilising and clearing (Eclipse). Or am I missing something here?

 

[Seke]

And welcome to WMT! My wife just got back from a brief trip to Lund. Spring was much farther along there than it is here!

Thanks! Lund is in the far south of Sweden, so for sure spring is much farther along there than here as well. Where are you?

 

[Broge5]

I have started doing just that. Adding the cubes after clearing phase so that they can stay in a little longer at bulk aging. However I'm quite a newbie with only about 12 kits under my belt and barely any ready to drink


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[sour_grapes]

We are in Milwaukee, WI, USA. This is only 43 deg latitude, but the continental climate makes it much colder than Lund (at 55 deg latitude), and even colder than you in Stockholm (at 59 deg latitude).

 

[MrKevin]

Kits come with instructions?

 

[wineh]

Hi all, I'm the new guy on the block. Really like this forum.

First question : what is the general feeling about following the wine kit instructions..? Especially with regard to the use of sorbate and clarifying agents (bentonite, chitosan, isinglass)?

All kits come with bentonite and it is used at day one to assist in fermentation, as the kit has been flash pastuerized to make it "shelf stable". I would not omit that one.
Potassium metabisulfite is a source of S02, which all wines (comerial and otherwise) need to remain stable while aging. Most kits state that they have very low sulphite levels compared to commercial wines. I would not skip this one either.
Potassium sorbate is a yeast inhibitor as well as a preservative. Most contributors here (myself included) leave this one out except in back-sweetened (off dry) wines. You need to ensure excellent sanitation if you're gong to leave it out.
I like to get my wines in the bottle by 10 weeks, so I use the clarifying agent (chitosan etc.). If you are going to bulk age for a long period of time, you could skip this one. I think some folks here are that patient, but I'm not one of those.

 

[Elmer]

Kits come with instructions?

Is that the piece of paper that I keep tossing across the room when I first open a kit?

 

[Seke]

All kits come with bentonite and it is used at day one to assist in fermentation, as the kit has been flash pastuerized to make it "shelf stable". I would not omit that one.
Potassium metabisulfite is a source of S02, which all wines (comerial and otherwise) need to remain stable while aging. Most kits state that they have very low sulphite levels compared to commercial wines. I would not skip this one either.
Potassium sorbate is a yeast inhibitor as well as a preservative. Most contributors here (myself included) leave this one out except in back-sweetened (off dry) wines. You need to ensure excellent sanitation if you're gong to leave it out.
I like to get my wines in the bottle by 10 weeks, so I use the clarifying agent (chitosan etc.). If you are going to bulk age for a long period of time, you could skip this one. I think some folks here are that patient, but I'm not one of those.

Thanks wineh - your comments make perfect sense to me. I still need to understand the connection between flash pasteurization of juice concentrate and need for bentonite in fermentation.

 

[sour_grapes]

I still need to understand the connection between flash pasteurization of juice concentrate and need for bentonite in fermentation.

Yeah, me too!

 

[wineh]

Thanks wineh - your comments make perfect sense to me. I still need to understand the connection between flash pasteurization of juice concentrate and need for bentonite in fermentation.

This isn't exactly how I was thinking about it, but it is from Winexpert:
http://www.winexpert.com/wine-wiki/show/Bentonite,+Composition+and+Use+in+Wine+Kits

 

[SouthernChemist]

Thanks wineh - your comments make perfect sense to me. I still need to understand the connection between flash pasteurization of juice concentrate and need for bentonite in fermentation.

The biggest use of bentonite is in the removal of proteins and other things in the juice that later on could cause issues. It is also believed by some to provide aggregation sites for the yeast during fermentation, but from what I understand this has been disputed in the past. As far as kits are concerned, bentonite is probably necessary for achieving the 4/6/8 week bottling time frame.